LiveTable seed topics
Back when Evening at Adler was conceived, the goal was to get a few bright Mac developers into a room -- because they're who I think you should be listening to -- and have a conversation.
No presentations, no booths, just the same vibe you'd get if you were hanging out with them for several hours over drinks. And then make sure everyone can see it...
We'd take seed topics, such as "DRM is starting to take hold in audio and video -- if it takes hold in other types of data files, what will that mean for a geek using a computer in 10 years?" along with other suitably vague topics specific to OS X and development, and just let the conversation go for awhile wherever it happens to go -- with my main job keeping it accessible when someone starts talking about flux capacitors.
I also mentioned that I'd like to involve the users as much as possible in this, both those who were able to show up and those who weren't, by allowing you to suggest seed topics of your own for us to talk about. We're still going to do that, and we need to do it now because the talk is ~1.5 days away. There really aren't any limits, and can be about any and everything involving the platform.
However, we probably aren't going to be able to chew through the amount of topics I'd originally hoped -- it's going to have to be limited, otherwise we'll end up just polling the panel instead of a conversation. However, if your question isn't used, letting the participants see what's on your mind may well influence what they bring up during the conversation.
Basically, via the comments, let me and others know what you'd like to ask them if given the chance.
Posted by drunkenbatmanOctober 20, 2005, at 03:34 AM
Comments (36)
Posted by: Enahil at October 20, 2005 04:01 AM
Basically, via the comments, let me and others know what you'd like to ask them if given the chance.
I was starting to think you'd forgotten! I have three:
1. Do developers think/worry/wonder if the Macintosh business now plays second fiddle to the iPod business?
2. Do they appreciate Tiger more as a developer instead of a user or less?
3. Do they think the move to x86 will make things harder for them or is an opportunity or both?
Posted by: at October 20, 2005 04:04 AM
I have one for Wil Shipley. Has he changed his mind on unit testing since he said it was a waste of time for developers?
Posted by: Adrian at October 20, 2005 04:11 AM
UI consistency has to have its place in this talk. With 'Aperture' announced and yet another interface variation by Apple it begs the question wether HIG are only for developers incapable of designing a good GUI, while the small rest is encouraged to make their app as unique as possible.
I have to disagree with Mac-arena. 'Apple Bug Friday' is the best that could have happened to the Mac community. Anything that opens another avenue of communication back to Apple is great.
If they don't have the people to ensure quality of their products we have to do something about it if we care about the Mac.
Otherwise we might just as well switch to another platform right now because if we remain silent more disasters like the Mighty Mouse and the Tiger's Mail toolbar are going to happen.
Posted by: Jon R. at October 20, 2005 04:18 AM
Probably too specific, but it's been on my mind for a couple weeks now:
I assume some/most/all of you have read John Siracusa's series from his blog, "Avoiding Copland 2010." What do you think is Mac OS X's most glaring technical limitation that could lead to another Copland-style disaster if Apple isn't careful? Do you agree with John that it is a memory-managed language and API?
Posted by: Will at October 20, 2005 04:22 AM
Well...I'd like to hear a discussion on where Mac developers come from. No one teaches you formally any of the things like Cocoa, good UI skills, or whatever, so there's no glut of young developers like you might find for, say, Java.
So what's the supply/demand curve like for bright young things who want to do some Mac OS X stuff? And is Apple eating them up(i.e., hiring them) too much for its own good, leaving the independents with too little talent to work with?
Posted by: Praetorian II at October 20, 2005 05:04 AM
I assume some/most/all of you have read John Siracusa's series from his blog, "Avoiding Copland 2010."
I don't know how many people outside of Ars read Siracusa anymore, young as his site is and even though people like DB and Brent Simmons linked to it. Even at Ars he is building a rep for retreading others and verbally masturbating if not straight out plagiarism. I liked his Tiger reviews so I gave him a shot and read for two posts then unsubscribed.
It is disappointing because their Infinite Loop journals are pretty good but he seems to be saying "HI I DID THE OS X REVIEWS" and then using Ars traffic to make himself an instant pundit... He had good karma from his reviews and blew it all within a few journal postings. I doubt I'll read them anymore now, too turned off.
The FIRST SENTENCE or two of his first post was off putting!!! "Ars has given me a journal, and I intend to use it." Well OOOOK thank you Mr. Arrogant all I was waiting for was a cure for cancer and Mr. Siracusa Blog. If you read a few and his arrogance is so thick it makes me nauseated and his reviews were nothing like that!
I don't know what Ars is trying to do with the journals outside of the news based ones but it should be careful if that is how it wants to be known as irrelevant.
Posted by: kari at October 20, 2005 05:05 AM
I'd like to know why Mac developers can come up with things like NetNewsWire, Transmit, Adium and Delicious Library, where everything clicks, while people at WIndows and Linux camps are left with much more inferior (bloated (Trillian), or just plain ugly and hard-to-use (WinSCP)) products.
Even cross-platform things like Azureus or Firefox, while superior on other platforms have (at least in my opinion) face competition (like Bits on Wheels and Camino) on Mac.
Posted by: at October 20, 2005 05:09 AM
I don't know what Ars is trying to do with the journals outside of the news based ones but it should be careful if that is how it wants to be known as irrelevant.
daaaaaaaaaaaaamn Praetorian been saving that rant up? Siracusa isn't that bad just have to take him with a salt mine. And the questions the original author raised are interesting.
Posted by: Carl at October 20, 2005 05:11 AM
Haters can hate all they want, FatBits is hot.
Posted by: Clokey at October 20, 2005 05:23 AM
I guess my question is not entirely related to Mac OS X and development but given the panel, they might like discussing...
"What was the single biggest event that let you get to where you are today?"
I guess answers could be life based, work based, etc. The people on the panel (including db) are creative, intelligent and above all independent. Where does it come from?
Probably better over a couple of beers ;-)
Posted by: Mac the Knife at October 20, 2005 05:44 AM
"Haters can hate all they want, FatBits is hot."
Don't label someone who doesn't like what you do as a hater. I was disappointed by his "journal" also, but still kept it in NetNewsWire hoping FatBits can keep my interest past a paragraph. He has zero charisma but a cool blog name. :) Maybe he was hyped & built up to be more than it was in my head and my expectations were too high.
Posted by: at October 20, 2005 05:56 AM
FOR FUCK'S SAKE if i wasn't bored with Siracusa before I am now reading about him!!! Why are we even talking about this?
My QUESTION: Are any of the developers concerned about Apple making more and more important software for the Mac instead of third parties? Is Apple having that much control with no competition good long turn and what do you do if they decide to make an app that competes with yours on the Mac?
Posted by: at October 20, 2005 06:01 AM
What do developers want to see most in 10.5?
Posted by: at October 20, 2005 07:09 AM
If you could cross compile your Cocoa programs for Windows, would you sell to Windows users?
Posted by: Ian at October 20, 2005 07:43 AM
Let me double Adrian's request for UI consistency and the HIG.
Posted by: Patrick at October 20, 2005 07:51 AM
As someone who has talked to John for years or read his messages on mailing lists, "Sense of entitlement" and "arrogant" describes Siracusa well, he really thinks you should listen to him. He really wants to be a pundit, and takes himself very seriously. Laughably so.
It is impossible for him to concede he doesn't know what he was talking about, always has an opinion and your opinion is always wrong. When he is obviously wrong I've seen him lie about what he said, then say he did say it but meant something else. Anyone knowing him for lengths of time and not just his OS X reviews knows a journal would make people who loved his OS X reviews scratch their heads, but blogs are now a major part of Ars in addition to the forum and they need bloggers.
HOWEVER I am still glad he started FatBits because it is not that bad and you can always unsubscribe. It is how he can develop his voice. He does have talents and there are areas he knows a lot about and he needs his voice to see if he will be another Jon Katz (slashdot editor given too much power too quickly and posted interesting things but made everyone else hate him for his attitude and condescending arrogance) but we cannot tell either in a month.
Posted by: Jon R. at October 20, 2005 08:20 AM
Had no idea that one question would cause such an uproar... I just found the article interesting and wanted to know what the panel have to say. Could have phrased it as "Where do you see Apple's operating system in 5 years?" but that just sounds so boring. Siracusa isn't the issue here, no reason to make him the issue.
Posted by: Twist at October 20, 2005 08:34 AM
The one about DRM is actually pretty good. We are already sort of seeing this with companies like Nikon now using encryption on their proprietary RAW format for some digital cameras. Another DRM question might be is how effective will on-chip DRM really be? Will it stop DRM stripping or just make it more difficult?
Posted by: drunkenbatman at October 20, 2005 08:39 AM
Guys,
While I don't generally censor or remove comments, I really don't have time to deal with this stuff right now, and I will if one more person posts anything not related to subject at hand.
It's not my perogative if you want to have conversations about that stuff, but not here, not now. -- None of it is appropriate or remotely pertinent to the topic at hand.
Drop it -- no exceptions.
Posted by: HeelToe at October 20, 2005 09:15 AM
I won't be able to attend, but I would like to hear something about what roads Apple (or third parties) might take to integration of binary code built for the intel instructions set. Will we be able to see Windows binaries running as processes (via an emulation layer) along-side OS X processes? What about Linux binaries? Will the future be contained virtualization environments (a la VMWare or something similar)?
Posted by: John at October 20, 2005 09:24 AM
How well has Apple struck the balance between first-party and third-party development? How will this balance have to change if Apple's market share changes? Is there a connection between this balance and the direction of market share change?
Posted by: foresmac at October 20, 2005 11:19 AM
Do any of the developers offer, or would they consider offering, internships--paid or unpaid--for college students?
Posted by: Andrew at October 20, 2005 11:55 AM
What does it take to migrate from being a hobbyist developer/hacker to being an professional-independent developer making a living (or part of one) from your Mac development?
Posted by: Craig Hockenberry at October 20, 2005 12:40 PM
Ask them how many items they have in their Dock...
Ask them how many times a day they use Exposé...
Ask them how many times a day they use Dashboard...
Ask them how many Terminal windows they have open...
These questions will provide insights as to how they work.
-ch
Posted by: Pat W at October 20, 2005 01:46 PM
1. How do developers keep the drive going to complete apps and to continually work on them?
2. What apps/features for OSX do you wish for?
Posted by: Michael McCracken at October 20, 2005 02:12 PM
These boil down to "What's the next big thing in desktop interfaces', but I couldn't resist leading the witness a little:
1. What's the one thing about your daily computing experience that feels like it needs to be dramatically rethought/improved?
2. The AddressBook database is an example of a single centralized framework that has been pretty successful for sharing important data between programs - if you could choose the next such centralized database for Apple to give us, what would it be? Or do you dislike the idea?
3. Assuming the computer has an idea of what you're up to - eg, are you working on something quick, working hard, writing, surfing, playing games, etc. Combine this with some knowledge of what time it is and what your patterns are. How could your own apps (or your favorite apps to use) use this knowledge to improve the computer using experience?
4. Spotlight search is good, but it's just a start. Where can we take search next, and how would your app use/benefit from a good interface that showed a constantly-refreshed list of related items? Do you like that idea? (cf. nat.org/dashboard)
5. What's your favorite all-time user interface?
6. What's the first UI 'polish' detail you look for when you open a new app?
And for the developers in the audience:
7. What part of programming for OS X needs the most improvement now, and how would you fix it?
8. What do you tell someone who programs for another platform about OS X to impress them? (And what do you avoid telling them?)
Posted by: aaron at October 20, 2005 04:57 PM
Start the night off right, "What is your adult beverage of choice?" "What color cow shirt did you get?"
Posted by: jb at October 20, 2005 05:19 PM
How much time do you spend coding/designing (productive work) vs. support/admin (non-productive)?
Posted by: FZ at October 20, 2005 07:45 PM
Since you have Paul Kafasis on board I'd like his evaluation on the current state and Apple's future plans for Core Audio. Branch out, if you will, on a group discussion on the OSX multimedia APIs.
Posted by: cabbey at October 20, 2005 10:11 PM
My question for the assembled gurus: Does anyone have a good book recomendation for experienced unix developers that want to move to the mac and take full advantage of the platform? Particularly things like GUIs, unique frameworks or libraries. I'm not looking for 'programming 101' that happens to be on a mac... more like 'mac programming 401'.
Posted by: R3 Crew at October 21, 2005 07:53 AM
Posted by: cabbey at October 20, 2005 10:11 PM
My question for the assembled gurus: Does anyone have a good book recomendation for experienced unix developers that want to move to the mac and take full advantage of the platform? Particularly things like GUIs, unique frameworks or libraries. I'm not looking for 'programming 101' that happens to be on a mac... more like 'mac programming 401'.
• Some materials to begin with here
http://developer.apple.com/referencelibrary/
• This would be the right time for you to go here and dig-in.
http://developer.apple.com/transition/index.html
• Also locate and absorb the "Human Interface Guidelines".
Hope this helps get you started :-)!
Posted by: R3 Crew at October 21, 2005 08:01 AM
Here's one for the panel:
Q: Has Apple provided any direct support that has helped
with the success of any products any of you have brought
to market?
* What was the type & level of that support?
* How do you believe it helped?
Posted by: cremes at October 21, 2005 11:55 AM
A few questions...
1. If you are designing Apple's next-gen OS, what mistakes in OSX would you correct and why? (I like the earlier one from Jon R about "how can we avoid Copland 2010.")
2. How do we avoid loss of data due to bit-rot of old formats? In other words, as data formats age and are superceded by new formats (MPEG1 replaced by H.264, MacWrite by Word, etc.) how do we guarantee access to old data (memories like pictures, movies, letters)?
3. For a small Mac-centric software firm, what do you think is the ideal size (revenue) and number of people to maximize profits and enjoyment in equal measure?
I also promised to start some shit between Jonathan Rentzsch and Wil Shipley about the unit testing topic. That may need to wait until we hit the bar afterwards.
cr
PS - I'm driving to Adler tonight, so I can probably offer rides to 2 or 3 people to get to the bar. Drop me a note at chuckremes[at]mac.com before 5PM CST if you want to reserve a seat.
Posted by: cabbey at October 28, 2005 12:48 AM
R3 Crew: Thanks for the suggestion, I already have an adc account and been deep into much of the official docs. I guess I'm looking for something *not* written/blessed by Apple... like the real dirt. (Best sources I've found for it so far are places like real developers blogs. ;)
Posted by: at May 10, 2006 02:13 PM
What is the main purpose of a seed
I have one: what do you think of Apple's bug handling, before (QA) and after (report fielding) releases, and its effects on users? (I, for one, find the existence of the 'Apple Bug Friday' meme somewhat dismaying.)