Why not AMD? (aka, Apple and x86 Questions, Part 4)
Do you think Apple will eventually move to AMD? They are by far more innovative than Intel, who is reacting to AMD and not leading the market. AMD is eating Intel's lunch! I could deal with moving from the PowerPC if they were using the best available, but Intel is the lowest denominator.
A lot of Mac users are really hung up on the Apple choosing Intel over AMD thing, but to really go into this we need a clearer picture of AMD's history in the microprocessor arena and their current role in the marketplace.
Right now, some of the antics you see going can and have really muddied the situation in enough people's heads that the way they view AMD is vastly different from the reality of their situation. Note I said clearer, as while AMD does have an interesting story, and we'll be going into some of the differences in their roadmaps and differences between their products and such, this isn't magnifying glass as this isn't titled 'Deconstructing AMD'.
I mentioned the reality of the situation, and this can get tricky, but think of it in terms of something's brandshare and mindshare in disparate groups versus what's really going on. Apple is actually a really great example of this, as several years ago I was having a conversation with someone very PC centric about some reseller stuff, and he said, "You know, for such a small company, they sure do make a lot of noise."
Now, if you're an Apple-head, that can throw you, as in your head the market is Apple and Microsoft, but I hate to break it to you: Apple is barely on Microsoft's radar anymore in a real way. They aren't worried about them in the same way they worry about say, Linux. Apple has been reasonably lucky here, because Microsoft mostly just ignores them instead of firing back (They do have some ammo) because there isn't a whole in it for them.
Of course perception is reality, which is one of the reasons why you see Apple trying so hard to sway perception when it comes to their standing in the marketplace, and one of the reasons why Apple seems to pretend Linux doesn't exist. 'Unix' exists when it comes to bringing software over, but not 'Linux', because Apple can't afford for the story to become all about Microsoft and Linux as third wheels have a hard time keeping mindshare.
Anywho, the reality is that Apple's world-wide marketshare (I.E., their percentage of new machines sold) is under 3% in a big way, and depending on who you ask, is actually well under 2%. These don't take into account the Mac Mini which was introduced, but even when those numbers are out I doubt Apple will be much above 4%, if they even get that. There are people predicting things like 6% by the end of 2005, and let's just say I'd be astonished.
As a contrast, the rest looks something like this:
- Dell: ~34%
- HP: ~20%
- Gateway: ~8%
Of course there are people like Sony and all who have their shares, but when you add them up you're left with a weird sum: almost 50% of the market is missing. These are the white-box computer makers, and run the gamut from those guys who have a shop on the corner and build your PC for you on the low-end, and the people putting together custom computers like Alienware.
Stop and think about that for a minute, and you can start to get an idea of the economies of scale the x86 processors have over something like the PowerPC when it comes to personal computer, and just how big of a sea Apple's boat is sailing in. At this point for Apple, it's about carving out a self-sustaining island while it tries to branch out and grow, mostly in niches. The desktop wars ended long ago, and everyone has moved on to new battlefields.
Dare to dream and all, but those are the numbers, and most people know it in their gut anyways, which is why so many are really freaked out about Apple and the Mac right now since the iPod seems to have their majority focus, and why there has been this impending sense of waiting for the other shoe to drop' in the community.
Still, while the desktop wars ended long ago, you often wouldn't know it by how Apple is talked about in the press, or how a lot of fans talk about new developments. This is generally a conglomeration of:
- The media loves a good horse race. They love tearing things down and building them up, and while there is often a glimmer of truth in the process of both, you can't really fit the context of a situation in a sound byte. Yeah, I know, this is the domain of politics and celebrity, but it takes place in technology circles too, and something like FireFox might be a great example also.
I love Firefox, and they've made strides, but it isn't as though Microsoft has them breathing down their neck to the point of game over... but you wouldn't know it from some of the stories out there.
- Opera's share of the browser market isn't very far behind Firefox's, but if you've noticed, if Opera lit itself on fire, the story would be how Firefox heard Opera lit itself on fire. [note: A reader passed on an article in the comments that shows Firefox may have started to pull away from the pack in a big way in the last 6 months ]
Now, Firefox getting publicity is good for them in a way, because it at least puts the idea of an alternative as an option in people's minds, but the point is that stories about Apple just sell, because people are passionate about the brand and curious. It's the same thing that gets Apple on the covers of magazines.
- Hardcore Apple fans, like hardcore fans everywhere, are functionally retarded when it comes to the object of their obsession. They can't help it, the object of their obsession has such a large place in their head that they become just a little... myopic.
I don't really fault them for this, because I'm the same way when someone says they love the Pixies, but only really know "that one song from Fight Club
". I lock the door and start breaking out the bootlegs while going on about being in High School and hearing Doolittle
for the first time while Jane's Addiction was playing in the backgraound and hearing them slowly meld into a message from God that this music was for me.
The point is, the Pixies take up a ton of headspace for me, but only a little bit for most of the general public. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, but it needs to be accounted for, because I'm hardcore about them, just as it needs to be accounted for here.
Where it can get a little sad is that obsession and passion can so easily be manipulated and/or abused, as it's not as though all of those "Anti-Mac" articles are really written because the author thinks it is the truth, and while one side may be 'faithful' that doesn't account for what the other side is up to.
We're going to break out of that list and jump to ignorance, because, well, it's the natural evolution. There's nothing really wrong with ignorance per se, it's generally just a state of unknowing, and everyone has ignorance patches... usually around things they don't have to deal with on a daily basis. I don't expect Joe Public to understand the finer points of obsession, just as Joe Public knows it will take me two hours to change the tire on a car.
Now, let's flip it and think about how most people think about Macs. For the most part, they're entirely ignorant, and if asked about them might say:
- Apple makes computers?
- Yeah, I've used Macs. My school had them... those black and white things?
- Yeah, I've used Macs, my school has some old iMacs down in the lounge that no one uses.
- Aren't they supposed to be really good at graphics? And music?
- I've never seen one, but I've heard they're really nice.
- Macs don't have games, do they?
- Oh yeah, those. Expensive, and slow. Kind of toys, really.
- etc., etc., etc...
A lot of Mac users will then either:
- Take this really personally, as obviously the person they're talking to doesn't know technology at all if they don't have a flying clue about Macs.
- Use it as an opportunity to be incredibly annoying and deign to make the person sit and listen about just how great Macs are, and how stupid the other person was for buying a PC. I know, because I've been there with the Pixies, and back in the day, may have done this regarding something called Rhapsody that never really shipped. (I was never really sold on the Mac to the point of zealotry, but I'll admit to buying into the Rhapsody promises in a huge way)
Most people generally just don't deal with Macs on a daily basis, or even encounter them, so they have little snapshot opinions. Impressions they've picked up along the way, but haven't really had changed. Macs often are slow for long periods of time, and when they become faster than what's out there, they need to be faster for a long time to really counteract the mindshare that's out there.
Anywho, this brings us back to AMD, and the impressions a lot of Mac users have of them, and the impression a lot of geeks have of them too. It's not necessarily a wrong impression, it's just incomplete, which can end up being misleading.
Historically, AMD has been a bottom feeder. They really were a follower, nipping at Intel's heels with lame-but-very-cheap-cores and horribly cheap and buggy supporting chipsets. Basically, for ages and ages, the joke would be you bought a machine with Intel inside if you couldn't afford a Mac, and you bought a machine with AMD inside if you couldn't afford Intel.
Chipsets are kinda what props the CPU up. A CPU is pretty boring on its own, and you need things like a logic board to make it interesting, which means you need things to allow it to communicate with RAM, ports, etc. A major problem with AMD was that they outsourced the making of their chipsets to others, generally overseas, and if you were putting together a cheap system in a market where margins are already razor-thin, if you can cut a corner somewhere and stuff should still work, that corner is going to get cut.
Of course most of those things are expected to be there, and if you were using an AMD chipset, things had a tendancy to go wonky. It kinda became a catch-all blame-funnel if you asked someone about problems you were having, similar to "repair permissions" in Mac OS X.
To hit this home, historically AMD has not been associated with:
- Innovation
- Quality
- Performance
Now, through a variety of means (much of which amounted to them taking things into their own hands) the quality of the supporting chipsets has improved, as has the performance of their chips, although the price has gone up. However, before the race to 1 GHz, most Mac users had little idea of who or what AMD was, and that probably started to color their perceptions a bit, as did Apple's bashing of the Celeron for quite a long time.
If you'll recall, at the time the MHz on the Mac was going nowhere fast -- or slow -- and just about everything tech revolved around this AMD and their Athlon in a good old fashioned horse race with Intel for the race to 1GHz... and that horse race cost AMD gobs of cash but got them gobs of mindshare. Perception and PR really do matter, and while Intel's business didn't suddenly go into the toilet, they of course responded (and perhaps overreacted) and made sure they'd be king of the GHz crown for a long time to come with their future offerings.
All of a sudden, AMD chips were fast, and for what you got in performance, cheaper than hell compared to Intel's chips. It wasn't as though AMD had some magical process for making them super cheap though, much of it just came from the fact that AMD only rarely actually turns a profit.
This is actually something worth bringing up, as it's not something a lot of Mac people are aware of... but AMD is not the healthiest company around, and has gone through periods, even recent periods, where its operating cashflow was very shallow. It's got debt, lots of debt. It isn't very diversified, focusing primarily on its core microprocessor business and flash memory. [note: A reader pointed me to this article, which I'd missed, saying AMD may well be dumping its flash memory business altogether]
You know, the stuff used in cell phones and cameras and such, which is just another of the areas Intel has a major stake in. Another area might be ethernet controller chips, which, you know, Apple has even bought and included in its products.
A good quarter for AMD is often one where it beats expectations yet still takes a loss, and to a certain extent, it just has a problem winning as when one of the areas it is focusing in is doing well, the other is just getting hammered.
An example might be when it was getting hammered in its CPU division, yet flash memory at the time was hot hot hot and AMD was turning a profit because of it, yet in the last quarter of 2004 (I haven't looked at Q1 of 2005 beyond marketshare stats) their processor division was turning a profit (Yay Opteron!) yet its flash division was getting positively hammered due to Intel deciding it, you know, wanted to just hammer them there.
Now, when AMD took an operating profit in its CPU division for Q4 of 2004 -- a huge quarter for it -- the division took in around 80 million in profit. In the same quarter, Intel was bringing in profits of over two billion. The specifics of this are fuzzy in my mind, but I do believe Intel was part of AMDs problem in the flash market, as they decided to compete very rigorously, and there are always rumors floating about that Intel plays cat-and-mouse a bit with AMD just to keep the anti-trust people off of its back.
At the end of the day though, all you need to know is Intel grew its business in NOR flash memory by 27% and AMD's memory group lost 20% of its marketshare.
This is an aspect of the companies that really can't be underestimated too much, considering the areas they are playing in, which are very, very expensive games:
- Intel has a habit of just raking in the cash, year over year, and when you are pulling in ~$7+ billion in profit and your competitor isn't pulling in profit year over year, almost ever, it's going to take a toll. That cash allows you to do things your competitor just can't, which means you have options. You can correct course without going out of business. You can funnel extra cash into R&D problems that would cause your competitor to run in the red. You can give more resources to multiple battlefronts.
- At this point in the game, one of the scariest aspects of microprocessor technology (aside from its environmental impact) is its exhorbinant costs. There are neat areas of the market where you can fire off a company your design and have it pumped out, but the smaller you go the more exponentially expensive the process technology (and research) becomes.
- Any fabrication plant in general has astronomical upfront costs, even if its just pumping out older 130nm+ tech. We're talking billions. These things don't get built every day, but you really need them if you are going to be able to provide the volume necessary to play.
What you should take away from some of what I'm hitting you isn't that AMD is about to die, but rather that AMD is not in the healthiest position in the world and sometimes what looks like a lead or a breather is really the time between punches.
They do have a new fabrication plant close to coming online in Germany, which should be interesting, and they've had a technology-sharing agreement going on with IBM for quite awhile (and which has been extended for several more years into the future) which has helped them big time when it comes to research and development.
And of course, you have to give AMD some credit here too. One could make the argument they've steered the direction of the entire market twice in recent history, while having well less than 20% of the market. (Just to note, don't think of AMD as being 15-20% of the size of Intel, as you have to remember just how many pies Intel has its fingers in; everything from graphics cards to controller chips to PDA CPUs to flash memory.)
AMD is also the underdog, and Mac users, and some would say the entire American culture, seems to be able to identify with underdogs and loves to root for them.
Mac users have heard the name HyperTransport, because it's in G5-based Macs, and AMD was really the key player in the technology and has pushed it in their 64-bit lines. They doubled-down with a huge bet on extending x86 rather than reinventing it, which has paid off in spades. IBM and others have multi-core chips in their very high-end offerings for awhile, but here was AMD raising the pirate flag and trying to bring it to the masses while carefully derailing Intels nicely-engraved roadmap.
It's really hard not to be charmed by AMD, especially when you see the performance of a decked out Opteron-based server compared to anything else on the market, including an XServe.
The Opteron in particular shipped (awhile ago) with an integrated memory controller, which puts the memory controller on the same die as the CPU, meaning you have them as one package. This is so kick-ass, as every time the CPU needs to communicate with RAM it has to go out over the system bus to communicate with the memory controller, which is sucking up bandwidth on the bus that can't be used for other things.
With an integrated controller, it's right there on the chip, so it can do more with the bandwidth available to it on the bus and access memory that much faster. It really has a dramatic, and will continue to have more and more as more CPUs are accessing memory, more memory is being put into machines, and CPUs are needing to be fed faster and faster. It's a full generational leap beyond what the PowerPC 970 or Intel's offerings have, and AMD has been pumping it out for years.
One really has to give them their due here.
Back in the K6 days the idea of Sun, Hewlett Packard, and even IBM building much of their kit around their offerings would have been laughable. They've come a long way from their bottom-feeding days, even as their tech has become more expensive.
And yes, an Opteron-based XServe running Linux and even Mac OS X would certainly rock. There's a reason why Apple is hot to show benchmarks with Photoshop/etc. on the PowerMac G5 page, yet there's nothing showing how the XServe stacks up for server-tasks.
Trust me, you don't want to see it. They're brutal, and it doesn't just have to do with the fact that there aren't any quad or 8-way XServes, let alone blade systems. While some of it has to do with OS X's architecture, a lot of it is just that the Opteron kicks ass at these tasks, and it's not just Apple feeling the heat. The server space is really the only area AMD has shown some real gains in since the Opteron shipped.
At the same time, you can't forget about where they really are in the marketplace and the heat they are under.
AMD recently filed an anti-trust lawsuit against Intel, and in their CEO's usual almost-bizarre way started posting open letters on their website (nothing against almost-bizarre, but it's amusing to hear a CEO say something like "it was a freakin' dismal quarter in flash [memory]", and in one of the PR statements surrounding it said:
Intel’s share of this critical market currently counts for about 80 percent of worldwide sales by unit volume and 90 percent by revenue, giving it entrenched monopoly ownership and super-dominant market power.
One of the reasons the above is great marketing is that it encourages you to adopt the soundite and think of the market as being Intel and AMD, with AMD having 20% of the market, whereas it is more like 16%, but bygones, the revenue and marketshare mismatch should be enough to raise your eyebrow.
AMD certainly has some valid gripes against Intel, and would love to see them thrown under some serious anti-trust regulation, but a lot of it is just a PR stunt as AMD knows the deal. Even though many people think of them as "eating Intel's lunch", they have had very little marketshare movement. In fact, they're about exactly where they were back in 2000:
- 2000: 16.7%
- 2001: 20.2%
- Q1 2002: 18.2%
- Q4 2002: 13.8%
- Q1 2003: 16.6%
- Q4 2003: 15.5%
- Q1 2004: 15.1%
- Q4 2004: 16.6%
- 1Q 2005: 16.9%
The one area where AMD has seen some real movement, as I mentioned, has been in servers, but even there it hasn't been storming the beach. Back in 2004, AMD was saying they expected to have a marketshare in the server space of 10-12%, and by mid-way through 2005 they still aren't close, knocking in at ~5.7%, which is up from the previous 2004 quarter (5.4%), but...
In the same quarter that AMD sold ~92k Opteron systems (Q1 2005), there were ~800k Xeon systems sold, and the majority of Opteron systems are still sold via little boutique and white box shops. When you look at a lot of the numbers, the clearest thing that jumps out at you is that the server market is the only place they're seeing real movement, and even there it is barely a threat to Intel right now in the hard numbers, it is all a perception thing. While AMD's server market share before the Opteron was basically a rounding error, Intel is still raking it in.
AMD is seeing some boosted sales in the general consumer market, but they are primarily coming from existing AMD owners, and we're brought around to another point: When something has become the defacto standard, as Intel has, it's not enough to be better to get people to switch, you have to orders of magnitude better or it's just not worth the hassle. Or, you can be so much cheaper that it is worth someone's while to give you a shot.
Basically, AMD has to be very cut-throat when it comes to pricing (as they have historically) in most of their markets, and the margins in the consumer space, with chips like the Athlon XP or the Sempron are brutally thin even though they've gone up a bit in price as AMD's tech has improved. That very slight server uptick is actually a godsend for AMD, as while their numbers haven't improved drastically, an Opteron is a (by AMD standards) very expensive solution and brings in very juicy margins, as AMD's balance sheet has reflected.
And of course, the Opteron is just one aspect of the market. Let's take a quick look at AMD's lineup going forward:
- Servers and workstations
The Opteron going to get the most attention in the second half of 2005, with three dual-core versions sliding into the market and starting to push away from the current socket they're using. AMD's initial dual-core solutions used the same package and pins as prior Opterons, so you could basically buy a dual-core chip, flash your BIOS, and be good to go. Great for AMD, although less-great for those selling AMD solutions, and they're moving towards a different pin layout now. I haven't heard what is going to be going on with it into 2006.
There is still the Athlon MP, which is basically a version of the single-cored Athlon setup for having multiple processors in a system, but it isn't a major focus and is just sliding along the road map.
- Desktops and desktop replacements
This is primarily the domain of the Athlon 64, in its vareties, but also includes the Sempron which is its very pared-down budget chip. AMD is basically focusing on two branches of Athlon 64, the Athlon 64 FX and the Athlon 64 X2, with the FX being higher-clocked but single-core, and the X2 being dual-core but with a lower-clock per core.
The word is that AMD will look at moving the FX line into dual-core sometime well into 2006, but it has some major problems here and single-cores are going to be around for quite awhile. There is the problem that most games are really just starting to look heavily into threading (due to Intel's hyperthreading becoming so prevalent), with most of them not taking great advantage of dual-cores, but AMD has a much larger problem here which we'll get to shortly.
- Mobile and notebooks
AMD's big push here is with the Turion 64, which is a follow up to their Mobile Athlon64 series, and is going to be their major push in this area through 2005 and well into 2006. When compared to say, a Pentium 4, it compares well, but it is not a truly mobile CPU in the vein of a Pentium M which makes up the Centrino line.
It is a great choice for say, a desktop replacement portable, but you won't have this in anything but a behemoth. To give you an idea, the Mobile Athlon64 generally runs more than three times the wattage of say, the Pentium M. In fact, the Mobile Athlon is basically just a regular Athlon that has been better tested so that they know they can run it at a lower wattage (and performance) than the regular.
The Turion64 is actually supposed to be a real mobile CPU,, and brings SSE-3 support (Which the Pentium-M doesn't currently have), AMD's 64-bit tech, and an integrated memory controller, which as you've seen me gush about, is a very cool thing. In addition to that integrated controller, the front-side-bus is being speeded up to 1GHz (from 800MHz, and yes, the current G4 doesn't have an integrated memory controller, but has a bus of 167MHz...) while the Pentium-M is hanging out at 400-533Mhz.
There are two real problems here, both with dual-cores and the mobile arena:
- AMD's dual core conundrum
Without a doubt, the high-end is AMD's shining area right now. When it comes to performance in the desktop or server arena, AMD is really garnering the enthusiast eyes because their chips generally just perform better per wattage, per clock, and overrall. Comparing a dual-Opteron system to a dual-Xeon system almost makes one feel a little sick, in the same way as seeing a 90lbs guy getting into the ring with a 200lbs guy when you know the little guy ain't Bruce Lee.
The Xeon isn't horrifying, but compared to its competition, it is lackluster and behind the Opteron. We'll just leave it at that, and look at where they Intel and AMD both are when it comes to dual-cores, and where they are heading...
Intel's dual-core offering is the Pentium Extreme Edition 840, or the Pentium D, which tops at at two cores running at 3.2 GHz, 1 MB of L2 cache for each core, with both cores sharing an 800MHz FSB to the system but which will probably soon be ramped up to the 1066 MHz bus the current Pentium4's use. It also includes HyperThreading, which on a P4 can show some dramatic gains, but on a dual-core system can be problematic.
HyperThreading is cool, and on a single-CPU can show a big boost for a lot of apps, but if you are just running one or two apps which aren't well-multithreaded on a dual-core system the overhead can harm performance a bit. However, if you are using a dual-core chip running a bunch of apps at once, or a bunch of apps that are well threaded, it can really help. Right now, if you were a gamer, you'd probably turn it off via the BIOS, but in a year or so you probably wouldn't.
Intel's dual-core chips run hot as hell right now compared to AMD's, as, well, their Pentium4 chips were already getting way the hell up there in terms of heat, especially at 3.8 GHz. The good news is that at idle, with two cores the Pentium-D at 3.2 GHz is about as hot as a single hot Pentium4, but it can eek even a little higher when you are going full bore.
In contrast, AMD's dual-core offerings have fantastic thermals. Stellar, really, as even though each core tops out at 2.4 GHz right now we're looking at a top-end AMD Athlon64 X2 using 60% of the power of a top-end Pentium-D. This is a big deal, and is the type of thing that can let you slice 100W off the power supply making the whole system cheaper and cooler.
AMD also has many of its technology leads in its dual-core chips, like HyperTransport and 64-bit processing in its dual-core offerings, and there is still that integrated memory controller.
Running at a much lower clock speed, AMD's Athlon64 X2, in terms of performance, will generally be on par with the Pentium-D and in some cases will pull a bit ahead. Often not by a huge margin, but clock-for-clock, and in performance-per-watt, AMD is smiling a cheshire grin in terms of technology. If only it could get people to buy...
On the low end there is still a single HyperTransport channel connecting both the cores to the rest of the system, but on the Opteron... the performance is astounding. A dual-core dual Opteron 875 (4 cores) at 2.2 GHz almost keep up with a Quad 3.3 GHz Xeon with 8 MB of L3 cache. It's really just brutal in the server arena for Intel, and I don't know anyone lusting after a big Xeon solution like they are the Opteron, but it is where Intel and AMD break pace on their dual-core offerings.
Intel actually 'beat' AMD's dual-core launch, but there is no dual-core Xeon, Intel's Pentium-D is primarily geared towards the enthusiast, workstation and personal computing space. In contrast, AMD is pushing dual-cores at the server and workstation market, with a heavy emphasis on the server. AMD says that servers are where it's needed most right now, while Intel says consumers playing MP3s and DIVX movies while downloading in the background and running virus software will get the most benefit, as it is more cost effective for a consumer to pick up a Pentium-D than a full dual-CPU system.
Who is right? Well, they both are, and of course most systems will be dual-core eventually.
This is where this gets really weird, and you'll see why I went into all that stuff about fabrication plants earlier: Intel is just stomping on AMD when it comes to dual-core pricing. Compared to the Athlon64 X2, the Pentium-D can be up to half the cost.
Yes, half the cost. From Intel.
Performance is comparable, even though it has a higher clock speed, and the Pentium-D runs hotter, but the high-end Pentium-D (two 3.2 GHz cores) costs the same as the low-end Athlon64 X2, and the high-end X2 is over $1k while the Pentium-D tops out at ~$500. The Pentium-D requires a new motherboard, while you can drop many of these first generation X2 into many existing motherboards for a nice boost, but Intel has a massive price differential to play with here, almost a frightening one.
AMD answer for the price differential is that it's a boutique chip, so it can charge a big premium for it out of the gate, but the truth is they probably don't have much choice in the matter.
When it comes to fabrication plants, there are two sizes we'll bring up here: the size of the process and the size of the wafer. Chips are made via a souped-up lithography process, where you basically 'project' the lines of the chip onto a circle-shaped layered wafer which are then etched chemically, and finally the chips are cut into individual units. Once you've built the fab and installed all the tech, you're basically printing cash, with the cost of the wafer being your big cost, and of course that wafer is expensive.
The smaller the process, the finer the lines of the chip can be, and the more chips you can fit onto a wafer. The bigger the wafer, the more chips you can fit onto it using a given process. Obviously, this ties directly into how expensive each chip will be. Since the wafer is your fixed cost, once you've made back your research and development and equipment costs, the amount of chips you're getting out of each one is directly proportional to how much they will cost and how much you will make.
All things being equal, the same chip going out on a 130nm process, and a 200mm wafer, will be much more expensive than the same chip using a 90nm process on a 300mm wafer, and this is really becoming AMD's achilles heel. 300mm doesn't sound that much larger than 200mm, but when it comes to surface area for chips, you're talking an increase of 225% over 200mm. That's a huge deal, and years ago Intel decided it didn't want to get short and started investing billions into fabrication plants and the technology needed to improve processes.
Intel has had 300mm running for several years, while AMD basically had to go around looking for partners to help it keep up in process technology, because when Intel can just decide to drop a few billion and build a plant, and its research and development budget is over 7 times that of AMD's, it knows it has a problem. AMD countered by becoming a partner whore, sharing tech with anyone it can in order to get help and spread the R&D dollars around. Motorola, IBM, and even Apple have been partners.
UMC was a partner, and in the early part of the decade, theoretically they were going to create a joint-plant in Singapore which would be AMD's way of keeping up with 300mm stuff, even if a bit late. It didn't happen, so AMD sidled up with IBM and such to help with capacity and technology, but that gets very expensive very quickly.
Right now, AMD basically has its one fabrication plant until its plant in Dresden, Germany comes online (hopefully) later this year, and the Dresden plant seems to at least be focusing on 300mm wafers and the upcoming 65mm process. Of course its costing AMD several billion dollars, and it is just going to get worse: From what I've heard, by 2007, new fabs are going to be approaching $7 billion. It can get help from others, but it's really constrained.
Meanwhile, as mentioned, Intel has been pushing on 300mm for years, and if I recall, back in 2004 dropped several billion dollars to convert one of its older 200mm plants to 300mm, giving it five 300mm plants total.
Stop and think about how much of the market Intel already supplies, and you can get an idea of just how much more capacity they already have. When you stop and think about just how expensive this stuff is getting, and that companies can't just go around throwing 70% of their operating costs into new fabs every year, you can get an idea of just how much better positioned Intel is going forward.
AMD probably just doesn't have much of a choice in what it's charging. The Athlon64s aren't cheap chips to start, and with its smaller wafers and outdated tech it's basically having to charge you for two full CPUs anyways, and if they have to go that route, might as well charge you for three. For Intel, due to their fabrication investments, the situation is very different, and could well be so for quite some time.
- AMD's mobile headaches
The Mobile Athlon was based on the 'Clawhammer' Athlon core, and was very very big both because it's a big design and it was produced on a 130nm process. For the Turion64, AMD moved to 90nm technology and was able to cut the die size way down, which is the same process the Pentium-M is currently using. Eventually the Mobile Athlon64 will move to 90nm also, but right now the process shrink allows the Turion to suck down less power and create less heat.
(except, because it is smaller, that heat is more concentrated and needs to be watched and accounted for in your design, or you are stuck with liquid cooling solutions when you try to push them, like the current PowerMacs)
The Turion is supposed to be a direct competitor to the Pentium-M, so the Mobile Athlon64 is still sticking around, which is interesting in the sense that if it works well, AMD can keep their share in the desktop replacement crowd with the Mobile Athlon but pick up some more in the actual notebook space which they've been all but drummed out of.
There are some problems. The Pentium-M runs between 1.6 GHz and 2.13 GHz with ~21-27 Watts, while the Turion64 runs at 1.6 GHz to 2 GHz (the Mobile Athlon tops out at ~2.2 GHz already) with a thermal signature of 25-35 Watts. Out of the gate, on paper, the Pentium-M is still winning in core wattage, but you have to give AMD some credit when you realize the Mobile Athlon64 was running between 62 and 81 Watts. Huge difference there.
When it comes to power though, that integrated memory controller rears its lovely head again, as AMD gets a nice boost by having to only connect to one chip on the board, whereas the Pentium-M has to have two chips on the motherboard; so its worth taking into account that the Turion64's wattage numbers also incorporate the integrated memory controller.
Of course, the Pentium-M has some of its own spicy technology that Intel put a bunch of effort into, and the Pentium-M still wins pretty handily, generally besting the Turion64 in power consumption by well over 20% both when under full load or just sitting idle.
And at these wattage levels, 20% is a big deal in terms of heat. It's a major step forward for AMD, but Intel is still ahead in terms of thermals.
When it comes to performance, the Turion64 is a little faster clock-for-clock under synthetic tests, but doesn't scale as high as the Pentium-M, which means you can get more performance out of an Intel solution for general tasks, but the difference isn't very large and they compare well. Under non-synthetic tests, like say, firing up a game and checking its frame rates, the Pentium-M pushes ahead by about 20%, although the top-of-the-line Turion64s generally edge out the the Mobile Athlons. That's a pretty large leap in performance, and much of it is due to Intel giving its CPUs more cache (Pentium-M's are also a bit pricier).
At the end of the day, AMD now has a mobile chip that gives performance about on-par with the mobile Athlon 64, using drastically less power, that also offers 64-bit processing and SSE-3. Pretty cool, and there is a market for it.
The problem is, the Pentium-M is generally offered as part of Intel's Centrino chipset, which means its bundled with things like Intel's low-power WiFi chips and such, and as anyone who has watched their battery power die while using WiFi, the CPU is just one part of the equation, and AMD is just dead to this market by arriving so very late.
Centrino has become synonymous with the best solution for mobile computing, and AMD just doesn't have even a toe in the door here anymore, and they are arriving very late to the party with a product with poorer thermals than the Pentium-M, lesser performance under most usage patterns, and the real kicker is that Intel is gearing up for their next generation of the Pentium-M which will most likely be a broadside with all guns firing. Intel is pumping a ton of cash into R&D, and a big chunk of it is going into mobile technology.
This is particularly problematic for AMD, because while they have something credible now in what is about the fastest growing segment of personal computing, aside from 64-bit and a cost advantage, their big offering is somewhat lackluster. They've been focusing on the high-end performance, but the big kicker for them is whether they have the resources in the future to pump R&D into the mobile space which is going to become more and more important.
Remember, lower-wattage CPUs aren't just for mobile markets, as their thermal signatures are what are needed for smaller and cooler PCs in general, and at this level, the research and development costs are getting scary.
Something you also have to keep in mind is that when it comes to the portable market in North America, Apple's market share is substantially larger than its overral share: On the order of 5%. Put two and two together, and it means the portable market is really, really important to Apple even compared to its other product lines. Most people know that, and since Intel is the major leader in that space -- they have the market practically locked up due to AMD's late arrival -- Apple really needs those Pentium-M's.
Ok, so if you've been paying attention, you're wondering why they don't use Intel in the mobile space, but use the Opteron or Athlon64* for its higher-end offerings?
As you may have noticed, AMD has yet to really crack anything but the white box market, and even the majority of those putting out Opteron servers are tiny little shops. One of the big reasons is that it really pays to be an all-Intel shop in volume. AMD has some anti-trust rumblings going here, under the idea that Intel is using its 'proposed' monopoly to force manufacturers not to touch AMD, but it's often not that cut and dry.
Intel will spend millions upon millions marketing the Centrino name, but even if your computer uses a Pentium-M, you can't call it Centrino unless it includes the rest of the package, or Intel's supporting chipsets. Intel can just set price breaks at volumes you'll only get if you are only an Intel-only shop, and if you're really pushing Intel's solutions Intel, with its very lined pockets, will chip in heavily towards your marketing costs since they're getting something out of it too.
Some years, Apple has spent over $100 million on marketing alone, and when you consider that many quarters that's more than they bring in in profit, having that offset by say, 50% gives Apple options. They can get more for the same amount, or they can get the same for less, or they can help use it as a buffer while they're transitioning over.
Intel also offers more complete solutions than AMD, which can't really be overlooked. You can get a... complete... solution via AMD, a very good one manufactured by NVIDIA, aka the nForce, but that's about it. For the most part they just throw out reference designs and people around the world cut whatever corners they can to have a cheaper system. You can get just the chips from Intel, but it starts to get a silly, as unless you need something really esoteric, Intel has taken their chipsets and outsourced the making of the boards to others, which means you have their economies of scale and testing behind you.
With Apple making this move, it would be almost insane for them to still be making their own chipsets, like say their own northbridge chip for tying the CPU to RAM and such as they currently do when the whole package is sitting there waiting for them to turn into something pretty, and by using it they save all the R&D that they are currently putting in. Intel is also really into offering hardware design and integration subsidies, for when you're running into trouble trying to put together your solution, and there are times when it's just a god-send to have one company you call.
Apple is moving to truly commoditized hardware here, not just some standardized parts like PCI or RAM, and while they can charge a premium for their brand, its design, and OS X, since the underlying hardware is the same they can't go go charging crazy margins as only a very select few will be down for buying a diamond-studded iMac. They'll probably use as complete a solution as they can, not hobble themselves but joining the majority hardware party and then making themselves making extra work for themselves.
Compared to say, the Opteron, there is going to be a period where their machines are unexciting, but they'll still have the PowerPC for awhile, and by committing to all-Intel, all-the-time, they're on a much more competitive playing field for the future. Remember, Apple has not been rolling in profit, especially their computer division, and transitions aren't easy or fun, and they want all the slack they can get.
And of course, this isn't a two-year deal for Apple, and it doesn't want to go through a bunch of crap again. Right now, the Xeon has some major problems when it comes to competing against the Opteron. 2004 was a really rough year for Intel in the performance area, and they've had a couple of bum bets, like Rambus, which was their long-term tech solution to the bandwidth problem, only it turned out that Rambus -- as a company -- was pretty much just insane and started suing everyone they could think of.
They were beat to the 1 GHz punch, and perhaps... overcorrected... with some of the design decisions of the Pentium4, which were made all the worse by having to hobble the design to get it out the door at a 'reasonable' time and a 'reasonable' price.
However, if it seems like there is a slight tinge of... desperation... to some of AMD's antics, it's because it gets what position its really in. It's a cruiser that's outmaneuvered a whole damn fleet, and while it's far enough away to start yelling taunts, the fleet is turning around and that gap is going to shorten. It can't do it overnight, but when it opens up, if it chooses to really open up, AMD is going to be in serious trouble, which is why it's trying to build as much hype and mindshare as it can right now.
The stupidest thing someone could do right now would be to discount Intel, or to think in terms of one year as opposed to five. They're one of the largest companies and most resourceful companies around, and the talent they have on-hand is extraordinary, and like Microsoft, they've shown they can get sidetracked down wrong paths from time to time, but when they really set their sights on a clear goal, it generally ends up happening.
note: Yeah OK, it looks like I probably could have gotten away with calling this "Deconstructing AMD", but then I'd have to add chapter headings and such and, you know, look stuff up. Bygones.
Comments (68)
Posted by: Mike J. at July 15, 2005 11:15 PM
DBM, how fast do you type and how long does it take you to do these? Over a few days or all at once?
Posted by: Comments at July 15, 2005 11:41 PM
Opera's share of the browser market isn't very far behind Firefox's.
Opera is far behind Firefox IMHO, Opera's share is, huh, 2% ? Kinda sorta like Safari ?
[AMD] isn't very diversified, focusing primarily on its core microprocessor business and flash memory.
Only microprocessors now. :-)
"In April, AMD Chief Executive Hector Ruiz announced the outfit would be taking its Spansion flash memory business public after the division dragged down what would otherwise have been solid earnings in the first three months of the year."
http://www.xbitlabs.com/web/display/20050627190747.html
Posted by: Lei Chen at July 15, 2005 11:51 PM
Opera is far behind Firefox IMHO, Opera's share is, huh, 2% ? Kinda sorta like Safari ?
Yeah, that stuck out at me too! DB, please see these statistics at webside story which say Opera and other browsers are less than half Firefox's marketshare now. Judging by your words, your data is six months off.
DBM, a lot of great balanced info but that stuck out.
Posted by: No Thanks at July 16, 2005 12:05 AM
"In April, AMD Chief Executive Hector Ruiz announced the outfit would be taking its Spansion flash memory business public after the division dragged down what would otherwise have been solid earnings in the first three months of the year."
HAHA. After reading this whole thing and the open letter on AMD website and now your comment... I wonder if the CPU market will take a downturn soon and flash memory will spike again. I am looking at the history of their stock price, and it is scary.
I am drooling over the Pentium M, but use a few XServes in our colo and thinkng of seeing those with Xeons still makes me sick.
Posted by: Chucky at July 16, 2005 12:06 AM
Quick 'n' sloppy article, but very nice and very informative all the same.
------
One thing popped out at me as dead wrong though:
"Apple is moving to truly commoditized hardware here, not just some standardized parts like PCI or RAM, and while they can charge a premium for their brand, its design, and OS X, since the underlying hardware is the same they can't go go charging crazy margins as only a very select few will be down for buying a diamond-studded iMac."
Why would Apple moving to commoditized hardware mean they can't charge crazy margins? To the buyer, what does it matter if Apple is making a custom controller or buying an off the shelf design from Intel?
In fact, by lowering their equipment costs, Apple has an option to raise their margins.
If Apple were to lower their hardware costs by (an arbitrarily selected) 20% by using Intel chipsets, one of three things would likely happen:
1) Apple keeps the price of their computer the same, greatly raising gross margins, and using the money for profit and R&D.
2) Apple passes the savings along to its customers, maintaining the same gross margins, and using the lower prices to raise market share.
3) Apple splits the difference between #1 and #2.
I fail to understand the scenario where saving money by buying cheaper Intel chipsets results in lower gross margins.
Posted by: eggsnatcher at July 16, 2005 12:21 AM
I think db thinks:
1. Apple's costs will not change all that much by going with Intel, but their hardware in the low and midrange will be more competitive. I think he said this, but do not remember which article.
2. You can charge higher prices for percieved value, and if enough people think the price warrants it they will buy it up to a point, but Apple cannot charge 40% margins anymore or not enough will buy, and right now they have a percieved differention (spelling? not sure) and it will be less so when they move to Intel. That MacTel machines will not be able to differentiate themselves in hardware as much because they start with the same technology as everyone else. If you buy a car with a Ferrrari engine you can charge a lot because it is custom and different, but even someone who is rich will not buy a ferrari with a dodge neon engine because everyone knows how much the components should cost. Even the 'Ferrari' brand laptop using an Athlon XP-M is only $1900, you can only demand so much for something with the same parts unless you are selling purses. :)
i am putting words in DBs mouth, but they are words he has said even if i cannot find the articles. he may be wrong though, as everyone knows what RAM costs and look what apple charges...
but hey thanks for the great read DB, the AMD situation makes a lot more sense to me now even if it took me two hours to get there.
Posted by: drunkenbatman at July 16, 2005 12:26 AM
thanks for the notes, i incorporated them above in brackets, but now i drink and crash, hopefully in that order.
Posted by: Twist at July 16, 2005 02:33 AM
"and as anyone who has watched their battery power die while using WiFi, the CPU is just one part of the equation"
Truer words have never been spoken. I get an extra 20% to 30% (depending on usage) out of my iBook battery if I use ethernet cable to attach to the network instead of using WiFi. Using something like Centrino would hopefully reduce the power required for wireless networking since the solution is more integrated than the stupid add-in cards that Apple currently uses.
Posted by: Matt at July 16, 2005 03:07 AM
Thanks for another excellent article. Lord knows how you go finding all this information!
Posted by: Jasyn Jones at July 16, 2005 07:14 AM
Sorta on-topic:
If OSX is running on Intel hardware, it has to be a Cocoa project, built for the Intel chipset, right?
Doesn't this mean that Apple has had a Cocoa OSX Finder for 5 years now and never deployed it? Why? Why code 2 wholly different Finders, one Cocoa and one Carbon?
Am I missing something, or is this sorta insane?
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 16, 2005 09:26 AM
Another view about why Apple chose Intel instead of AMD is because Intel could offer all of those "Intel Inside" comarketing dollars, but AMD couldn't. If you look at the dynamics of the x86 PC industry, it's basically been brutal price-cutting to the point of making a loss, at which point Intel gives you its marketing dollars so you can finally pull a profit at the end of the quarter. Entire PC OEMs are dependent on Intel's comarket dollars to pull out their only profit. You only get this money if you are 100% Intel. This is the basis of AMD's antitrust case against Intel, and it's an unusually good point, because Intel is a monopoly and all of this behaviour from a monopoly is *illegal*.
You painted a picture of an AMD that is weak, trying to undercut Intel at all costs by making a loss. Historically, AMD's average gross margins on its microprocessors aren't all that far behind Intel's. However, the microprocessor industry has large initial fixed cost with running fabs, typically around $1 billion. Once you get past this initial cost, every microprocessor sold after that ends up as just pure profit, and your profits start escalating madly. AMD is accusing Intel of holding its marketshare down to just break-even levels. From the stories long-known within the PC industry, AMD's accusations are true and just the tip of the iceberg. Intel has _already been found guilty_ of these actions in Japan; Intel's offices have just been raided by the European competition authorities too. The case AMD has is being given a 75% chance of winning by some analysts. So what happens if this is all true? Quite simply the "Intel Inside" marketing money will be declared illegal, and Apple will get none of that money that it so desires. After that point, AMD and Intel processors get put on an even footing by all OEMs (including Apple), and the only sort of discounts either manufacturer (AMD or Intel) will be offering are straight volume discounts.
Posted by: buildamacclone at July 16, 2005 11:54 AM
You know, If it were possible to build a Mac clone using an AMD cpu I might consider it, IF it were dramatically better and on par pricewise with an Intel cpu. Thing is their processors were so bad for so long. i like the quality of Intel cpus a lot by comparison....let's see whats out there in two years for THAT project
Posted by: TheTruth at July 16, 2005 12:03 PM
Stargate sucks rotten eggs next to BattleStar Galactica. Stargate is the kind of tripe that a PC user would make. The Cylons would eat the Wraith for breakfast.
Posted by: fortimas at July 16, 2005 12:38 PM
Yeah, AMD has a lot of hype in its camp right now, but I still wish the Opteron was on the table, even for only the short term. We picked up a low-end dual system and it screams under SUSE.
Posted by: Peter da Silva at July 16, 2005 12:41 PM
Bunch of points here.
1. For whatever reason, Intel has great process technology, but they really suck at microprocessor design. If you look at any Intel microprocessor, it's stunk on ice. All the way back to the 4004. You've had complex instruction sets, weird instruction sets, weird memory models, and back-of-the-pack performance. It's like they look at what they think the customer wants, and build a processor that looks like that, instead of just building a design they can make go fast. They only really took off in performance when they were able to separate the customer-visible design from the actual core, and let their engineers just make the damn thing go fast without worrying what it looks like to the programmer.
4004 "let's build a chip to sell to calculator makers"
8086 "segmented architectures are hot"
iApx432 "Object oriented programming's hot, let's make an object-oriented chip"
i860 "Hey, RISC makes the compiler do the work, let's REALLY make the compiler do the work"
IA64 "Let's expose the whole pipeline! That'll be 'leet".
2. AMD has a history of working very hard to avoid working very hard, and this has really paid off. They'll take ideas from anywhere, they grabbed ideas and designs from Alpha, Intel, anyone who came up with an edge. What's the biggest problem with the x86 architecture? Register file is too small. How do we get the register file bigger? We make the registers wider and we add more registers... and THAT is why AMD64 is fast. Not because it's 64-bit (64 bit is slow, unless it also gives you another 'edge') but because the compiler doesn't have to work as hard juggling registers. But... 64 bit gave them the *marketing* edge to pull it off.
AMD has low margins because they're small and doing big-boy stuff. But they have good chips because they just concentrate on making good chips. They don't have the luxury of wasting resources on weird designs like intel does.
3. Apple's margins don't depend on the quality of their computers. Some of their systems have really sucked, and they still got their 40% margins for it. Apple's margins come from the fact that if you want to run Mac OS you have to buy a Mac. They're a software company that makes its money from hardware sales, like Cisco is. Nobody ever bought a 2500-series router because they liked the low-end 68000 and miserly memory that came in it, they bought it because it ran IOS. I didn't buy a Mac mini because it's a great computer... it's basically a low-end laptop with the most expensive part of the laptop (the screen) left off. I bought it and paid about $200 in "Mac Tax" because I had to buy it to run OSX.
So long as they can keep people from legally running OSX on clones, they'll be able to charge the "Mac Tax".
4. Carbon runs on Intel. Apple's got lots of experience with Fat Binaries, they're not dependent on the NeXT technology there. And, googling on apple.com, you can find that in the Universal Binary documentation it states: "Your application can use any of the Mac OS X development environments: Carbon, Cocoa, Java, or BSD UNIX."
5. Don't get me started on the Finder. They should have kept the NeXT File Manager and the Apple Finder as separate applications. Merging them was a completely daft idea. But... I'm sure the code hasn't been lost, so they DO have a "Cocoa Finder", back there in the NeXT code base.
Posted by: nessence at July 16, 2005 01:38 PM
In one line:
Apple picked Intel because Intel is a monopoly, primarily because of Intel's marketing mindshare and additionally their technology in laptops.
If you don't believe that Microsoft wasn't due for anti trust, then I expect you not to beleive AMD. But, if you believe Microsoft got what it deserved, you should strongly consider researching what's happened. As bbbl67 already mentioned, this has already started in Japan. That said, this has little to do with Apple's choice. But it was brought up because AMD as a bottom feeder is a mute point. Apple could be considered a bottom feeder to. In fact, AMD and Apple started to get their wind at about the same time. The only difference is Apple got lucky with the iPod. Apple is married to the iPod now and, monopoly or not, Intel is really the only one with experience in technology that would yield beneficial. You might not be aware however, that is really just 'mindshare'. Intel, excepting Centrino, doesn't have shit on small components. That would be Texas Instruments. TI spends more money on R&D than marketing for a reason.
Posted by: Moraine-UIC at July 16, 2005 03:08 PM
DB, don't turn into a bean counter or a hypocrite. You post things "for the sake of absurdity and sillyness", and I love you for it but I don't like this side of you.
People buy Apple products because they want the best in both hardware and software. If the best chip for the Powerbooks is the Pentium M, I want the Pentium M in Powerbooks. If the best chip for servers if the Opteron, I want my Mac to have the Opteron. Fuck this other shit.
Posted by: at July 16, 2005 03:52 PM
Huh, a little light on the technical jargon. I could actually follow this one. :) I wonder if the situation would be different if Intel could not make the agreements with their customers that lock out others.
Posted by: Will Parker at July 16, 2005 04:23 PM
"People buy Apple products because they want the best in both hardware and software. If the best chip for the Powerbooks is the Pentium M, I want the Pentium M in Powerbooks. If the best chip for servers if the Opteron, I want my Mac to have the Opteron."
I'll go with DB on taking the long view. Apple has had enough bullshit and uncertainty from its CPU vendors. I'll go with slightly lower performance if the overall result is less drag on the entire platform.
Posted by: drunkenbatman at July 16, 2005 05:28 PM
I'll go with DB on taking the long view. Apple has had enough bullshit and uncertainty from its CPU vendors. I'll go with slightly lower performance if the overall result is less drag on the entire platform.
Just for clarity's sake, I'm not specificly advocating one way or the other (I'd love an Opteron-based system), just trying to give a clearer view of what may be going on.
Posted by: Peter da Silva at July 16, 2005 05:35 PM
The problem ith the "best chip" theory is... the best chip for powerbooks is the G4. The G4 core is damn good, it does more per clock than just about anything out there, the only problem with the G4 is the slow bus. And Freescale's next chip, which will be sampling within the next few months (unless the Apple announcement has put it on the back burner), has moved the memory management on-chip (like the Opteron has), along with much of the chipset... it's got two 667 memory busses and two PCI-E busses on chip, in single- and dual- core versions.
Going to intel may be a great marketing move, but there's no technical justification for it.
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 16, 2005 05:58 PM
[quote]I'll go with DB on taking the long view. Apple has had enough bullshit and uncertainty from its CPU vendors. I'll go with slightly lower performance if the overall result is less drag on the entire platform.[/quote]
You're coming into the x86 world late, and the information you have about it is eons dated. I'm not talking about whether you know the product spec info, such as Centrino is a great mobile platform, P4 is a desktop chip, and what not. I'm talking about the harder to quantify dynamics of this business that you're not aware of. AMD's value isn't simply that it offers slightly better performance than Intel, sometimes at better prices. Currently, AMD is also the more reliable producer and it has been this way for at least the past 3 years: it is the one that brings products to market on time and usually ahead of schedule; it has the more sophisticated manufacturing technology, the proper technology required these days to keep processors running coolly, efficiently and fast, without quantum leakage; Intel usually has trouble meeting schedules these days; Intel is also the one with trouble producing enough of certain parts when necessary; etc.
But even all of that geeky manufacturing stuff aside, the legal rulings against Intel are a brand new dynamic that you are probably not fully aware of yet. The Japanese raided Intel the first time one year ago, and it quickly found enough evidence to convict it within 9 months of the initial raids, back in April. The Europeans have just raided Intel only last week: it's been stated that the Europeans don't go on antitrust raids unless they're absolutely sure that they will find something.
As I stated at the beginning, you're coming into the x86 world as newbies. The Intel that you're expecting to greet you when you finally step through the door will not be the same anymore. It is expected to lose billions from the lawsuits against it (conservatively, it's way more than a 50% chance that it will lose them). And then soon after, it's expected to finally lose marketshare to a newly resurgent AMD finally free to pummel it with technology, unshackled from the monopoly market mafia techniques. It's a bit like becoming buddies with John Gotti just before he went to jail -- he's not going to be able to protect you from behind bars.
Posted by: eco 2 geek at July 16, 2005 06:21 PM
As I stated at the beginning, you're coming into the x86 world as newbies. The Intel that you're expecting to greet you when you finally step through the door will not be the same anymore.
One of the reasons I read DB is because he straddles Windows and Linux and OS X. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
If AMD really has the more sophisticated manufacturing technology, could you back that up?
It is expected to lose billions from the lawsuits against it (conservatively, it's way more than a 50% chance that it will lose them). And then soon after, it's expected to finally lose marketshare to a newly resurgent AMD finally free to pummel it with technology, unshackled from the monopoly market mafia techniques.
I think your fanboy roots are showing, and you may be right but I've been around the block. We heard the same things about Microsoft and the same things about Intel the first time.
You just sound like an AMD fanboy, which is funny because half of what I read this morning (It took me 4 hours to read this because of work) seemed positive about AMD but realistic about their capabilities.
Posted by: Chris Perardi at July 16, 2005 06:31 PM
From Jasyn Jones: [quote]Sorta on-topic:
If OSX is running on Intel hardware, it has to be a Cocoa project, built for the Intel chipset, right?
Doesn't this mean that Apple has had a Cocoa OSX Finder for 5 years now and never deployed it? Why? Why code 2 wholly different Finders, one Cocoa and one Carbon?
Am I missing something, or is this sorta insane?[/quote]
Um, I'm pretty sure they're keeping the Carbon Finder. Carbon apps will run x86 machines. They'll need recompiled, and will probably need more tweaking than Cocoa apps, but they're support.
Apple's not abandoning Carbon, as Microsoft/Adobe/other large companies are not about to dump their existing Carbon codebases. Hell, considering a lot of Cocoa calls are just wrappers for Carbon call (many of the Quicktime functions, I believe?), there's no way Apple could drop it.
Posted by: at July 16, 2005 07:04 PM
informative... but the 'hype' stuff didn't need to be in this. those who will get it already knows how it will work, and those who don't won't get it when its explained
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 16, 2005 07:32 PM
[quote]One of the reasons I read DB is because he straddles Windows and Linux and OS X. I don't think you know what you are talking about.[/quote]
Good for you.
[quote]If AMD really has the more sophisticated manufacturing technology, could you back that up?[/quote]
Yup, I'll give you several examples about its manufacturing technology. For marketing reasons, Intel likes to brag about how it is usually the first to get to a miniaturization node (eg. going from 130nm to 90nm first). In the past this has helped it stay competitive because miniaturization makes the circuits faster and cooler too. However, with the recent generation of miniaturization, we're starting to see quantum effects like we've never seen before. Intel started experiencing all kinds of current leakage issues. Intel found that its 130nm Pentium 4 (Northwood) was running cooler and just as fast as its 90nm P4 (Prescott); Prescott is producing a minimum of 100W of heat at its slowest speeds -- it was so bad that Intel had to cancel its 4.0Ghz Prescott, because it was burning through motherboards. Even its low-power Pentium M/Centrino saw a slight increase in heat generation when going from 130nm to 90nm, it went up from 21W to 25W.
Why is Intel having all of these heat problems? Because it was not capable of integrating SOI into its process. SOI is something that IBM and AMD cooperated together on and got it working on their processes. AMD is finding that it's transition to 90nm has resulted in lower heat and faster performance, just like in the good old days of miniaturization. Intel is now bragging about getting close to introducing 65nm, but it still hasn't gotten SOI working. It's expected that 65nm will result in even more heat losses for Intel. Pentium M is projected to use 35W at 65nm instead of 25W at 90nm.
[quote]I think your fanboy roots are showing, and you may be right but I've been around the block. We heard the same things about Microsoft and the same things about Intel the first time.[/quote]
I've been around the block quite a bit too, and I've watched this thing develop over the last 25 years, right from the first IBM PC to the modern stuff. Having watched the previous monopolies break up, such as IBM own monopoly, to be replaced by Intel and Microsoft, I'm seeing the same patterns now with Intel. Microsoft is also quite a bit humbler now with its run in with near death at the hands of DOJ. The difference between MS and Intel is that Intel is being taken to court by a bitter rival, with a vested interest in seeing it dismantled. DOJ had no personal interest in handing out punishment to Microsoft.
Watch the developments with Intel, they parallel how IBM originally lost its control over the PC market 15 years ago. Back then X86 PCs were called IBM PC compatibles, then they started being called Wintel PCs -- which psychologically ended the reign of the old master IBM.
Posted by: Technophile at July 16, 2005 07:49 PM
Very interesting article. Just two points to clear up. I noticed that you noted the fact of IBM sharing technology with AMD. This is honestly what has saved AMD's rear. Remember how buggy and slow AMD chips were? And how it seemed like overnight they exploded and were suddenly right up there with Intel for speed at half the price? SOI technology from the AIM alliance. 90nm fab process...AIM...120nm fab process...AIM...and much much more. Apple/IBM/Motorola PPC Alliance. So yeah, AMD hasn't had the best history concerning R&D.
Secondly, Opteron faster than XServe??? Whaddareyafriggincrazy? Check out the server tests on multiple sites, NASA and many other very high-end test centers. Not how fast it can find & replace in Word. On the low to medium end of processing tasks they all run similar, switching who is in the lead, but really hammer them with real data....say the human genome or NASA aerodynamic data and it is a no contest! The XServe is easily 2-4 TIMES faster than anything Intel or AMD has to offer.
Overall, a very good article though. Excellent read!
Posted by: Jake Tracey at July 16, 2005 08:50 PM
Another excellent read. You raise some interesting points about the size of Intel in comparison to AMD - I was aware that Intel was obviously a much larger company, but not of the state of AMDs finances. It must be extremely frustrating for AMD to have to fight an uphill battle against one of the most powerful hardware companies in the world.
Posted by: drunkenbatman at July 16, 2005 09:01 PM
Hey guys, just remember, 90% of the time people can have differences of opinion without going for the throat. Be cool.
Posted by: Jeff Weisman at July 16, 2005 09:15 PM
Why would Apple moving to commoditized hardware mean they can't charge crazy margins? To the buyer, what does it matter if Apple is making a custom controller or buying an off the shelf design from Intel?
Chucky,
I think db is referencing a marketing phenomenon whereby consumers are repulsed when a known cost is gouged. Something becomes a know cost when it has become a commodity.
An average consumer knows how much a liter of soda costs, and what it consists of, so you can only charge so much before they are repulsed.
Posted by: Aaron Porter at July 16, 2005 10:15 PM
BBL,
Not discounting what you say, but I wonder if AMD is so far ahead, and its troubles are due to anti-trust practices with the big companies, why don't they have 50% of the market? If DB is right, then almost 50% of the market are "white box" companies anyway, and not Dell, right?
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 16, 2005 10:21 PM
For those who are not yet convinced that Intel's power days have peaked, here's an article that summarizes basically what I've been saying about these lawsuits will be cutting down Intel severely within a couple of years. Although it's never a good idea to prejudge a case before it's started, I can't see how it can even begin to defend itself, there's nothing even a little gray about its practices, they fall directly into textbook cases for antitrust laws. The discounts that Apple is expecting to get from Intel will *not* arise, all of that money will be needed by Intel itself to keep its own books black.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-1697039,00.html
Posted by: at July 17, 2005 12:26 AM
Why is Intel having all of these heat problems? Because it was not capable of integrating SOI into its process. SOI is something that IBM and AMD cooperated together on and got it working on their processes.
There is no Silver Bullet, IBM had problems despite their nifty SOI process.
http://www.eetuk.com/bus/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=20300708
IBM positive on IC yields, foundry demand
May 13, 2004
The chip unit continues to wrestle with its chip yields, but claims it is close to resolving these nagging issues. Last month, IBM disclosed it lost $150 million within its struggling semiconductor unit alone, due to ongoing chip yield issues and a drop in intellectual property revenues. One problem is ongoing yield issues within its 300-mm fab in East Fishkill, N.Y.IBM's chip yields "are not quite where we would like them to be," said John Kelly III, senior vice president and group executive of IBM's Systems and Technology Group. "Lately, our defect densities have improved quite rapidly. We expect to do a better job to meet the demand of our customers," he said during a conference call on Wednesday (May 12).
Posted by: Jasyn Jones at July 17, 2005 03:13 AM
Chris wrote: "Um, I'm pretty sure they're keeping the Carbon Finder. Carbon apps will run x86 machines. They'll need recompiled, and will probably need more tweaking than Cocoa apps, but they're support."
AFAIK, Carbon apps require Rosetta to run- they have to run through emulation. XCode will not simply recompile them for the new platform. Some portion of the app has to be recoded, whether a small amount or a large amount.
Only purely Cocoa applications can be simply recompiled. If they're keeping the Carbon Finder, it's running (at least partially) through Rosetta.
I could be wrong, but that's the gist I've gotten by reading the transition PDF's.
Does anyone who has access to one of the MacIntel test boxes know? Can you verify?
"Apple's not abandoning Carbon, as Microsoft/Adobe/other large companies are not about to dump their existing Carbon codebases."
Certainly, that's what Rosetta is for.
Posted by: xil at July 17, 2005 03:48 AM
AFAIK, Carbon apps require Rosetta to run- they have to run through emulation. XCode will not simply recompile them for the new platform.
This is complete and utter nonsense. Carbon apps CAN simply be recompiled for x86. There is no emulation necessary.
Posted by: John at July 17, 2005 06:28 AM
This article has a number of very weird ungrammatical sentences. Not in the schoolmarmy, grammar police way, but in the unparsable, syntax-error way. "It really has a dramatic," for instance. There are also a few examples of sentences that just seem to have gotten out of control-- the agreement problem in "AMD is also the underdog, and Mac users, and some would say the entire American culture, seems to be able to identify with underdogs and loves to root for them." speaks to that.
I would expect that this articles was either written very late at night or under the influence of a few white russians. Either way, it could use a quick polish.
Posted by: John at July 17, 2005 06:29 AM
"l would have been laughable." Ok, that's just too much.
Posted by: Federal at July 17, 2005 10:42 AM
>> bottom feeder
AMD was making bit-slice CPUs for 16-bit and 32-bit mini-computers back when Intel was making 4-bit calculators - hence the "Advanced" in the name. DDR memory, 64-bit X86, DEP hardware security, direct connecto architeture - most of the innovations in computer technology in the past 5 years has come from AMD and been copied by Intel 2 years later.
>> chipsets
Much of AMD's success since 1999 has been to disaster after disaster in Intel's platform due to Intel's buggy chipsets. The fiasco of the MTH which led to the recall nearly a million motherboards was followed by the fiasco of the 3 slot 810 boards. Intel could have been really serious trouble except that it was bailed out by the "far east" chipset designers and producers. Otherwise there would have been almost no boards at all for Intel chips.
A good part of AMD's current success is due to the superiority of the Athlon platform, followed by the even better Athlon 64 / Opteron platform. AMD can't take all of the credit for them, though, they are based on technologies developed at DIGITAL in the late 90's that were aimed at mainframe systems - but AMD found a way to include that superior technology in moderate priced PCs.
>> wafer costs.
300mm2 wafers have 2.25 times the area but cost 5 times as much. To understand why, ask your girlfriend what costs more, a ring with a 1 carat diamond or a ring with 5 similar quality 1/5 carat diamonds.
Posted by: at July 17, 2005 12:22 PM
"This article has a number of very weird ungrammatical sentences. Not in the schoolmarmy, grammar police way, but in the unparsable, syntax-error way. "It really has a dramatic," for instance."
Welcome to DrunkenBlog. You will know you are a native when you look forward to them.
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 17, 2005 03:43 PM
[quote]Very interesting article. Just two points to clear up. I noticed that you noted the fact of IBM sharing technology with AMD. This is honestly what has saved AMD's rear. Remember how buggy and slow AMD chips were? And how it seemed like overnight they exploded and were suddenly right up there with Intel for speed at half the price? SOI technology from the AIM alliance. 90nm fab process...AIM...120nm fab process...AIM...and much much more. Apple/IBM/Motorola PPC Alliance. So yeah, AMD hasn't had the best history concerning R&D.[/quote]
Technophile, actually no, SOI played a big role in its current success, but not really in its previous success. During its last generation of processors, where AMD was the first ever to get 1Ghz, it didn't have or need SOI. Back then its secret sauce was copper interconnects. Copper was first developed by IBM again, but the process that AMD used was jointly developed with Motorola (now Freescale, of course). Again, AMD adopted the technology at least one or two generations ahead of Intel. For all of its chest-thumping, Intel's process technology is primitive, it's only advantage in manufacturing is that it has a lot of fabs and therefore capacity.
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 17, 2005 04:22 PM
[quote]There is no Silver Bullet, IBM had problems despite their nifty SOI process.[/quote]
Yeah, but AMD didn't, despite the fact that they codeveloped the technology together. It's not all just the science behind it that's needed, there's a fair bit of seat-of-the-pants feel behind it too. AMD has its own proprietary technology that it uses that it doesn't share with IBM, called APM (Automated Precision Manufacturing), which most companies have something similar. However, AMD's is unique in some ways as it is integrates seat-of-the-pants feeling as part of its process; a manufacturing defect in one stage of an assembly process can be detected and compensated for in the next stage on the fly. Most other processes require that the whole batch of wafers be processed, and then they make changes for the next batch.
To give you an example of how important APM is to AMD's manufacturing, AMD has an outsourcing agreement with Chartered Semiconductors. Chartered will produce upto 20% of AMD's processors, whenever AMD needs extra capacity. AMD would not license Chartered to manufacture these until Chartered purchased a subset of the APM technology for use in its own plant. I'm not saying that this is a general purpose technology that'll help in all kinds of semiconductor operations, but it quite definitely is needed to get good yields of its Athlon/Opteron/Turion/Sempron processors.
Posted by: Yispilanti at July 17, 2005 04:35 PM
Really groovy article. Sloppy describes it well, after Deconstructing MXS I am spoiled, but as an informative stream of consciousness it is groovy. Lots of info there, and loving the comments as well. Even "BBL" who is being deragatory and is obviously in love with AMD but has some good info to share...
Unfortunately, BBL or anyone else has not answered this one question asked in the comments which seems important to their point --
Not discounting what you say, but I wonder if AMD is so far ahead, and its troubles are due to anti-trust practices with the big companies, why don't they have 50% of the market? If DB is right, then almost 50% of the market are "white box" companies anyway, and not Dell, right?
If AMD is so far ahead, and can't break into the bigger companies because Intel makes them use all or nothing (and subsidies) why are they not moving very much in the white box market?
Posted by: Iljitsch van Beijnum at July 17, 2005 05:17 PM
A few random points...
Quote:
Secondly, Opteron faster than XServe??? Whaddareyafriggincrazy? Check out the server tests on multiple sites, NASA and many other very high-end test centers. Not how fast it can find & replace in Word. On the low to medium end of processing tasks they all run similar, switching who is in the lead, but really hammer them with real data....say the human genome or NASA aerodynamic data and it is a no contest! The XServe is easily 2-4 TIMES faster than anything Intel or AMD has to offer.
It occurs to me that we're talking about two very different kinds of computing here. On the one hand, there is the XML-parsing style of computing. This is basically one huge pile of if/thens, or in CPU jargon: very branchy code. On the other hand, there is the heavy number crunching type of code. Sometimes this is so non-branchy, that you can get away with having a Single Instruction working on Multiple pieces of Data (SIMD = vector = Altivec/SSE). Seems to me that x86 CPUs rule the land of the XML computing, while the PowerPC is very strong in the number crunching department. (Not so strange considering that Freescale pays the rent selling G4s for digital signal processing and similar applications. In this area the G4 still manages to beat the competition even with its sucky bus and at half the clock speed on occasion, see for instance the RC5-64 challenge.)
The question is: is Apple going to give up its number crunching advantage when it moves its high end stuff to Intel? I'm very interested to see what's going to happen here.
Also, I wouldn't put it past Apple to suck Intel dry and then partner up with AMD. If I were Steve Jobs, I'd have a "best performance" clause in my volume discount contracts so that I could buy AMD for the big iron and still enjoy my laptop volume discounts if Intel isn't competitive.
Last but not least, I don't get this whole "lower prices" thing that people keep mentioning. Have you seen the prices for Intel CPUs??? Now sure Apple is going to get a very sweet deal but I don't believe for a second that an Intel that's fast enough to blow away Apple's current offerings even when comparing the PPC's strong side (Altivec) with the Intel's weak one (having to emulate the PPC) isn't much more expensive than their current CPUs. Also, don't forget that Apple co-developed the G4 and (AFAIK) commissioned their own support chips which are now sunken costs. These advantages go away with Intel.
But it doesn't matter. Even if they buy standard Intel mother boards and fold them double to fit them inside an aluminum case, (some) people are still going to pay the Apple tax because of the superior design alone. And nothing that The Steve has said or done convinces me that Apple is giving up on the hardware modding completely, although the trend towards more and more generic components has been clear for many years.
This is lost on many people, but selling for the lowest possible price isn't good business. Apple has managed to find customers that are willing to pay premium prices over and over again. That 3% is worth more than 30% at the opposite end of the market.
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 17, 2005 05:22 PM
[quote]If AMD is so far ahead, and can't break into the bigger companies because Intel makes them use all or nothing (and subsidies) why are they not moving very much in the white box market?[/quote]
What are you talking about? Until recently that is the only place they were moving their processors, in the whitebox market. There was a time where all major tier 1 OEMs had shut out AMD at the behest of Intel.
Whitebox is not just mom'n'pop corner computer store types. It also includes smaller OEMs, tier 3 or lower. There's too many of those manufacturers for Intel to bother bribing all of them, so they actually respond to standard single-processor pricing rather than to fancy discounts on volume sales. In the whitebox market, AMD had about a 30-40% marketshare. And as whiteboxes are 50% of the overall market, you now see why AMD's existing marketshare of between 15-20% came from. The lawsuit AMD has opened up is to open up the remaining 50% of the market to it, which has been heavily regulated by Intel.
Posted by: Celenium Crisis at July 17, 2005 05:45 PM
"Whitebox is not just mom'n'pop corner computer store types. It also includes smaller OEMs, tier 3 or lower. There's too many of those manufacturers for Intel to bother bribing all of them, so they actually respond to standard single-processor pricing rather than to fancy discounts on volume sales. In the whitebox market, AMD had about a 30-40% marketshare."
RIGHT, but you imply the only thing holding AMD back is Intel unethical grip on manufactuers with subsidies and kickbacks and exclusionary conditions. Those dont apply to the smaller companies, the white box companies, so if AMD is so superior, why does it not have ALL of them? Something is keeping AMD from owning all of the market Intel cant control, but you haven't said what it is... And isn't HP selling Opterons in some of their servers?
BTW, do you own any positions in stock or options in AMD? Do you think they have any problems at all?
Posted by: Nigel Kersten at July 17, 2005 05:57 PM
AFAIK, Carbon apps require Rosetta to run- they have to run through emulation. XCode will not simply recompile them for the new platform.This is complete and utter nonsense. Carbon apps CAN simply be recompiled for x86. There is no emulation necessary.
I think people are getting confused over the difference between Carbon apps developed using Xcode, and Carbon apps developed using Metrowerks. The former are simple enough to recompile for x86, the second (at this stage) look like they will need to be moved over to Xcode.
It's interesting to see that Apple have now decided the Cocoa bridge for Java is frozen, and new features won't be pushed across to it.
Posted by: drunkenbatman at July 17, 2005 06:03 PM
Secondly, Opteron faster than XServe??? Whaddareyafriggincrazy? Check out the server tests on multiple sites, NASA and many other very high-end test centers. Not how fast it can find & replace in Word.
XServe. If I was putting together an actual file server, or web server, or database server, an Opteron-based solution will generally outpace an XServe-based solution quite handily. The margin would be lower if you used Linux on the XServe instead of Mac OS X, but it would still be very significant.
If I were asked to put together a solution for genome sequencing, or an HPC cluster, the situation might well be reversed. :) However, that is a very small if somewhat lucrative market, and there is probably a reason why Apple will not break out PowerMac and XServe sales, and why they will not break out iMac and eMac and Mac Mini sales.
Posted by: Jon H at July 17, 2005 06:34 PM
Regardless of which CPU they use, Apple ought to have Alienware design a special, pimped-out gaming configuration Mac. Let them pick the hardware components.
It could be sold via the Apple store, perhap also via the Alienware store.
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 17, 2005 06:55 PM
[quote]RIGHT, but you imply the only thing holding AMD back is Intel unethical grip on manufactuers with subsidies and kickbacks and exclusionary conditions. Those dont apply to the smaller companies, the white box companies, so if AMD is so superior, why does it not have ALL of them? Something is keeping AMD from owning all of the market Intel cant control, but you haven't said what it is...[/quote]
You seem to be under the impression that a company is only successful if it can monopolize something (even a subset of a market). Do you seriously believe that in a truly free market that a company can or should get 100% of the market? That's not a free market, that's a monopoly all over again. It has a respectable 30-40% in the whitebox market; it's not asking for the whole thing, it's asking for a fair share. The whitebox market is the only part of the PC market that is truly free market. AMD is trying to free up the remainder of the PC market that is currently monopolized by Intel.
Does AMD have any problems? Sure, it is currently capacity constrained with the number of fabs. It now can only supply upto a maximum 30% of the overall PC market (70 million processors). It has a new fab coming online next year that will allow it to supply "only" upto 50% of the market (100 million). So it's not aiming to be a monopoly at any rate. Intel is still going to be needed for the rest. If you look in other industries, no one worries whether GM or Toyota or others have enough capacity by themselves to supply 100% of the world market for cars; if either of those companies did have that much capacity, then they have an overcapacity. However, in the CPU world, Intel does have that kind of capacity to supply the whole world by itself; and therein lies the crux of its problem and that of the PC industry -- it has designed itself to be a monopoly for a long time. That's why it has to employ all of these illegal tactics to make sure it has no competition in its markets: if it allowed a free market to flourish, it would have too many manufacturing plants sitting idle. Even if Intel had a healthy 60-70% marketshare, that would mean it would have an overcapacity problem.
Posted by: pumper hater at July 17, 2005 09:55 PM
Never mind, BBL is one of those posting in the Yahoo Finance Boards about AMD, and they do these things all the time. That is why he is so positive, he is a stock pumper and probably owns stock.
http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=4687810&tid=amd&sid=4687810&mid=1212185
Posted by: John Davis at July 18, 2005 01:21 AM
Good article - a book, really! But there is one thing I'd like to comment on. You mentioned the average person's concept of Apple/Mac, I agree, they don't generally have much of an idea about it. If they've heard of it - and everybody has - a fact itself that makes you begin to wonder about the "3%" market share hype - the common thing is "good for graphics and music and easy to use."
But what about the "3%" bit?
This may appear off topic, but it's not. L.Ron Hubbard states in an article that there are two ways for a country to expand: 1) in terms of territory and 2) in terms of influence. What the Mac platform doesn't have in terms of territory (market share) it certainly has in terms of influence. The change over to Intel chips was headlines even in pc-centric U.K. - on the BBC News.
The influence the Mac has is very great and cannot be ignored.
This brings me to another point and one which you may disregard as zealotry. I was in email communication with a pc magazine writer and he made the point of "Microsoft is the industry leader, it has greater than 95% of the market." But I think he was confusing leadership with size. They are not the same. How many people does it take to be a leader. Usually just one, right?
Microsoft has bought or blatantly copied most of its "innovations." Windows 95 looked to me not a copy of the Mac GUI, but the NeXT Gui. The list goes on and would be an article EVEN longer than yours.
But I think the reason the Mac is still around is just this. Whether the average man in the street knows it or not doesn't matter. It has influence. Far greater influence than you realize.
Yours sincerely,
John Davis
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 18, 2005 02:58 PM
[quote]What the Mac platform doesn't have in terms of territory (market share) it certainly has in terms of influence. [/quote]
John, which also demonstrates why you don't need to have a monopoly in order to have success as a company.
Posted by: John Davis at July 18, 2005 04:36 PM
[quote] John, which also demonstrates why you don't need to have a monopoly in order to have success as a company.
Exactly! Or why you don't have to colonize the whole planet with force.
John Davis
Posted by: losof :( at July 19, 2005 04:10 AM
L.Ron Hubbard states...WTF, i don't argue with L.Ron Hubbard. Especially not if the singularily confused leader builds in germany. But, don't fear he doesn't want to "colonize the whole planet with force". Don't feed the trolls, they say, but what if discussion itself takes a direction where you become one yourself?
Posted by: Apple head at July 19, 2005 08:26 AM
Why not AMD?
Since the Pentium 4 i prefered an AMD over an Intel mainly because AMD chips run cooler and even outperform the Pentium 4s at the same price. But since the reincarnation of the good old Pentium 3, the Pentium-M, price/performave ratios are going to change in favor of Intel. A reallife example:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2382&p=3
And being an Apple head i have to point out that Apple's share is up by 4.5%, probably 4%, according to the Macobserver.
http://www.macobserver.com/article/2005/07/19.3.shtml
grtz.
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 19, 2005 10:12 AM
[quote]Since the Pentium 4 i prefered an AMD over an Intel mainly because AMD chips run cooler and even outperform the Pentium 4s at the same price. But since the reincarnation of the good old Pentium 3, the Pentium-M, price/performave ratios are going to change in favor of Intel.[/quote]
One thing that needs to be understood is whether the MacOS for Intel is 32-bit or 64-bit right now? If it's 64-bit then all of the testing that developers are doing on the current P4-based Macs will go to waste as the Pentium-M is not going to be 64-bit capable. Not for a long while yet. The P4 is 64-bit but it will be replaced by the 32-bit P-M. Just a few of the wierdnesses that you have to put up with when going Intel. All of AMD's processors are now consistently across-the-board 64-bit capable (of course in invented the 64-bit x86 technology), from mobile to server, but no such assumptions possible with Intel.
Posted by: Apple head at July 19, 2005 03:12 PM
[One thing that needs to be understood is whether the MacOS for Intel is 32-bit or 64-bit right now?]
64-bit may be the future just like 32-bit was when all was 16-bit but if the OS and especially the apps won't be using those 64 bits, 32-bit works just as well.
When talking about performance it won't matter if the first intels are 32-bit but Steve will be having a tough time convincing his customers since he hyped 64-bit since the PPC G5
For a graphical OS, Tiger isn't ready for 64-bit:
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/4
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 19, 2005 08:29 PM
[quote]64-bit may be the future just like 32-bit was when all was 16-bit but if the OS and especially the apps won't be using those 64 bits, 32-bit works just as well.[/quote]
Yeah, but you gotta look at it from the future hassle point of view. Even though 64-bit OSes can run the older 32-bit apps without modification, they cannot run the older 32-bit device drivers. That's because device drivers often need to do DMA, which means the device driver has to know how to access all of the physical memory, not just the stuff below 4GB. That also means that you have depend on peripheral makers to provide you with the new drivers. That's what delayed the introduction of Microsoft's Windows x64 (or at least that's what they say). Microsoft apparently was able to recompile its Windows from 32-bit to 64-bit within 2 days of being given the first 64-bit sample chips from AMD; they then waited 2 years for the device makers to do the same thing for their device drivers. Most device makers didn't see enough of a revenue potential to bother, so they light-footed it. By contrast, Linux with its open source developers and device drivers, had a full 64-bit OS ready the day of the first Opteron launch. Judging by the extreme laziness of closed-source companies, it would've been better to start off with the 64-bit drivers right from the beginning.
Posted by: Iljitsch van Beijnum at July 20, 2005 02:40 AM
Well, I would be very surprised indeed if any existing device drivers would work on Mactels, so that bullet has to be bitten anyway, might as well make them 64-bit, or 32/64-bit. But since the Mac only requires third party drivers for actual third party hardware, this isn't much of an issue.
(Wondering whether I can still use my Keyspan USB-to-serial adapter and my M-Audio USB-to-SPDIF adapter on one of those new machines, though.)
Posted by: Peter da Silva at July 21, 2005 05:09 PM
64-bit is about the most overhyped concept outside of Microsoft. Four points:
1. If you NEED 64-bit, you know you need it. Because you're spending half your time trying to figure out how to avoid loading shit into the 2-4 GB of address space you have available. If you're not doing that, you don't need 64-bit.
2. If you need 64-bit, you're probably a database company or doing scientific computing or really big simulations.
3. If you don't need 64-bit, you don't want it. Moving around the bigger pointers will slow you down.
4. If you're writing GUI software for Mac OS X, you're almost certainly not out of address space, and you don't need 64-bit. I'd actually be interested in hearing about any exceptions to this point.
AMD-64 is faster NOT because it's 64-bit, but because it's got twice as many registers. 64-bit is just a marketing tool to get people to buy into recompiling to make use of them.
Posted by: Uli Kusterer at July 22, 2005 01:07 PM
DB, great article. It's nice to hear a theory on the Intel/AMD issue that both feels coherent and has a bunch of attitude.
On the whole Cocoa/Carbon/MacTel thing... I've programmed the Mac for more than half my life, so I could summarize it and would end up pretty much at what Jobs's slide at WWDC said:
Cocoa: recompile (most endian-relevant code is inside the frameworks and has already been ported for you by Apple -- like NSNumber, NSUserDefaults, NSArchiver etc.).
Carbon compiled with CodeWarrior: Metrowerks is owned by Freescale and won't be along for the ride. Move to Xcode.
Carbon compiled with Xcode (GCC): Recompile, make a few changes, e.g. to file loading/saving code. Carbon is fully supported by Apple, but its file-saving routines are more low-level than Cocoa's.
Rosetta doesn't figure into this at all. Rosetta is for old applications written for PowerPC Macs (both Cocoa and Carbon), and makes those run on an Intel Mac, with a speed hit.
So, no, we won't get a rewritten Finder. Though, after 10.4's Finder came with lots of bug fixes, I am harboring hopes it won't be needed.
(Feel free to forward this (unchanged) explanation to anyone who gets the whole MacTel/Cocoa/Carbon issue wrong)
Posted by: bbbl67 at July 28, 2005 10:01 PM
[quote]AMD-64 is faster NOT because it's 64-bit, but because it's got twice as many registers. 64-bit is just a marketing tool to get people to buy into recompiling to make use of them.[/quote]
Not at all, 32-bit programs cannot use the extra registers, it doesn't exist for them. The actual performance improvements for AMD come from its Direct Connect Architecture, which completely replaces the Front Side Bus architecture prevalent on Intel processors.
Posted by: JLarz at August 7, 2005 04:41 PM
[Quote][quote]AMD-64 is faster NOT because it's 64-bit, but because it's got twice as many registers. 64-bit is just a marketing tool to get people to buy into recompiling to make use of them.[/quote]
Not at all, 32-bit programs cannot use the extra registers, it doesn't exist for them. The actual performance improvements for AMD come from its Direct Connect Architecture, which completely replaces the Front Side Bus architecture prevalent on Intel processors.[Quote]
It seems to me that If AMD wanted to get A strangle hold on the market, it should develope and copyright a hardware/software combo that maximizes the 32 bit existant programs to be run by the 64 bit processors currently in manufacture. This could be done by using a run/once 1st time compiler of a sort that disects the program you wish to use into a form more suitable for 64 bit execution and saves it for the future on your HD. Dual processing streams have an advantage over single streams (this is so obvious he says as he reaches for his Rolaids) I at this time use a Asus K8V Mobo w/ AMD-64 and feel sick whenever I have to use anything else, the differance is that great. I am shopping for a good laptop which will please me as much as this combo does. So I am here looking at your comments about Intel vs AMD mobile technology and so far am leaning toward the Turion based equipment. Please come up with something better than I have and as the great man once said "Astonish me".
Posted by: Funktron2001 at January 3, 2006 12:42 PM
Yeah, Microsoft ignores Apple. That's why Microsoft is revamping WMP to include TV content like iTMS. That's why Microsoft came out with their music store after Apple's huge hit with iTMS. That's why Windows Vista has Aqua, Quartz Extreme, something that's suppose to be like Column View (bread crumbs), Spotlight with Smart Folders, iPhoto, OS X's file system hierarchy complete with the same user folder names, PDF built-in like OS X, iPhoto, iDVD, iCal...
Microsoft doesn't ignore Apple. Apple is Microsoft's R&D department.
Posted by: Hoaxcutter at January 6, 2006 01:11 AM
So AMD has out performed Intel !!!
And apple is moving towards x86 would really cut microsoft on desktop users (if apple are not goin to make their own hardware :-()
So the losers turn out to be INTEL and MICROSOFT
Posted by: tmay at January 19, 2006 02:19 PM
Simple question. Is Apple abandoning vector processing, or is there some continuity that we aren't privy to? It looks to me like the fire has gone out of vector processing on the Mac architecture.
Posted by: Mindfield at February 4, 2006 02:20 AM
It was what, 6 or 7 months between the announcement that Apple would use Intel chips and the release of some Apple Products that had Intel chips?
Is it impossible that in the next month / few months the AMD Power Macs / Mac Pros / whatever are announced due sometime at the end of the year or there's about? Steve noted that going with AMD was setting themselves up for a fall re: supply problems, but surely they could handle just the Power Macs range?
Oh and one last thing, what do you mean when you say Rhapsody "never shipped"?? What on earth do you think Mac OSX is?






Damnit! I have the new Stargate s9 ep1 TIVO'd and you 8,000 words right before I go to watch it, and there is no way I'll be able to stay awake long enough to do both. :-(
I'm sorry, I love you, but will have to leave this for tomorrow... Amanda Tapping calls! :-)