I hate having to shoot software in the head

...especially when it's software I actually really, really like.

I've been checking out the new version 2.0 of SubEthaEdit for the last several days (I know, I'm kind of behind right now), and I have to say I'm both very happy with whats new and a little wigged out and disappointed in other areas...

If you're not familiar, SubEthaEdit started out as an app named Hydra, and is essentially a collaborative text editor that allows you to share documents over your local subnet via rendezvous.

Pretty slick stuff, I've shown it to guys on other platforms who do extreme programming and they've drooled. It's not the first to do this, ancient apps like the CLI-based emacs can do it... but you have to enter IPs. SubEthaEdit makes it nice and slick... pull up the browser, and you can see available documents open on other computers, and edit/highlight/etc.

I never have use for its collaboration features, but I'm not the only one who got sick of BBEdit and started looking for alternatives and found in ~~Hydra~~ SubEthaEdit a nice editor with a small footprint, native interface, and decent syntax highlighting. If you're doing HTML/XHTML it's even got a nice little webview built in so you can preview what you're doing. Between it and Wisp for shell scripts 90% of my editor needs are met... which makes me happy.

The biggest thing I've noticed in v2.0 is that the interface is a bunch cleaner and text handling seems much, much snappier. It's still not as fast as it should be, but it chugs a lot less while I'm editing large documents. And code-completion. Happiness.

But I'm wigged out... when I launched it, I got smacked with a whole bunch of license and registration messages which really, really didn't jive with what I knew of the project. Sure enough, checked the site, and its gone shareware... free for personal use. Sickening.

Now there's absolutely nothing wrong with charging for your work, that's just how it goes. But I do have a problem when you mislead people into using your program for testing and building a base, and then changing the rules. You can't find it on their site now, but I swear to f'ing gawd in their FAQ it used to say something along the lines of (paraphrased, from memory):

Question:
Will you release the source?
Them:
We fully intend to release our project under the GPL, however it was written quickly and the code is not quite in a state to be released into the wild. It is also still "our baby" mentally and we have several things we want to put in before we release it, but we will.

I take these kinds of things really, really seriously, especially as many people have learned the hard way... getting "surprised" by software you have come to depend on just sucks. I try to avoid companies who do that. Additionally, I just really don't care for people who don't do what they say they're going to do. Maybe it's just from working in the corporate world... but if you make a promise, and people make decisions based upon it, and you don't keep it, you are in deep shite.

While I may admittedly have it ingrained in my head that it's just something you don't do because of my background, even on a personal level I find it to be... distasteful. They said they were going to release the source, and lots of people who otherwise wouldn't have been interested picked it up and put effort into it.

People hacked the syntax definitions files, added modes, spent oodles of time sending bug feedback, etc... all on the idea that they were working towards the product itself, not free for a company. I know one person who was thinking about starting on his own GPL code editor, and didn't because he dug Hydra at the time, and it was going to be GPL'd... so why reinvent the wheel. Hell, even the osx.freshmeat listing still says its under a freeware license.

F'ing. Uncool.

It doesn't mean its not a good product, or that I don't like the product or want to use it. It just means I've learned this lesson, and I'm sick of companies releasing software saying it will be free/GPL in order to gain a base and then turning around and doing something else. I've gone through this with three separate products this year.

I'm not anti-commercial software, I often prefer it... having the source around was a bonus, not something that every really tipped the scale in one products favor. It was just gravy.

But I'm done with this crap. It doesn't mean I won't use software where the source isn't available, but it's moved to the very top of the list when evaluating a piece of software. Which means I need to start another round of looking at software to fill SubEthaEdits spot, with the source being available at the very top of the list.

Which means I'm looking to retire SubEthaEdit early. Normally I wait until the nag has gotten soft in the feet and let her go in a field somewhere when it's not doing either of us any good to keep it around. SubEthaEdit is getting taken out into the field and being put down.

There has to be some decent stuff out there, it's been awhile since I looked. Hell, 80%+ of SubEthaEdit's functionality is as a text-editor, and all the syntax highlighting and regular expression stuff is done through 3rd-party functionality, like OgreKit, a BSD-licensed cocoa framework.

Any suggestions?

Posted by drunkenbatman
May 26, 2004, at 12:32 PM

Comments ⁽¹³⁾

Posted by: Alun Carr at May 26, 2004 01:43 PM

Using the Wayback Machine to find the original Hydra FAQ:

====
FAQ

1. General

Did you think about releasing Hydra as OpenSource?

We actually played with the thought of making it open source. Main reasons why this did not happen (yet?):

It's still too much our baby. Quite some features we'd really like to see (and implement) did not make it into 1.0. (e.g. tight Project Builder Integration)

Time. As you might imagine in the last 8 weeks developing Hydra, we did not have much time working out licenses and stuff.

Control. To us, it's also an issue of not having done something like this before and not wanting to take (wrong) steps too fast. We decided to release version 1.0 as freeware as it keeps our opportunities open.
====

So they never actually promised to release the source code under the GPL.

Posted by: HYe at May 26, 2004 03:03 PM

I don't think they specifically said it they would release the code or it would stay freeware, but they did hint in that direction in the FAQ and interviews. Even up to a few months ago they were still calling it a freeware project. But they never specifically said it would stay that way so I am going to cut them slack here.

You do touch on a disturbing trend in Mac software now. To release it as freeware to grow your base, then turn it into shareware once it is popular enough. The first hit is free until you are dependant. That is not how it used to be and I think people are catching on if your post is an indication or Dive into Mark Freedom O. But it is their right.

For suggestions I use TacoHTML which is donationware with Textextras for XHTML and it suits my needs nicely. For PHP I use Apple XCODE.

Posted by: map at May 26, 2004 05:00 PM

Hi.

I am sorry if you are disappointed and I'm sorry if we loose you as an user. I understand and respect your feelings towards commercial and OSS software.

However I feel accused of lying here, and wrongfully so.

As Alun pointed out, the first version of the faq stated, that we were considering going opensource. Around 1.1 this was changed to a statement that we probably won't open source the application (for various reasons) but would keep it free for non-commercial use. This is the only promise we made and kept. It's quite unfair to harshly accuse us of breaking promises we never made.

I would appreciate it if you could reconsider your statements regarding these facts.

Being accused of exploiting users, I strongly object. As mentioned SubEthaEdit still is free (as in beer) for personal use. The only thing that changed is that we ask commercial users, that can afford to, to support us by buying a license. We gave out a lot of free commercial licenses to supporters.

I am not sure about your statement refering to OgreKit. We contributed to OgreKit and you will find my name quite a few times on Isao's site, you've linked. I'd consider myself a good OSS citizen.

I'm open to discussion and hope you are too.

bye,
Martin

Posted by: neil at May 27, 2004 06:17 AM

Hey db,

I think, for what it's worth, that the 'quid pro quo' style of licencing ought to be the norm. I first came across it with TrollTech's Qt licence choices. Since then, I've been mulling over the idea of using it myself. It allows people to try out your stuff for free, which is good for both you and them.

IIRC the guys who wrote it were still at University when they launched it. It's prolly ;-) a little harsh to judge them by the standards that you'd apply to Big Enterprise Inc.

Posted by: Pedro Vera at May 27, 2004 06:22 AM

Would you care to expand on why you got sick of BBEdit? BBEdit has given me such a productivity boost since I switched to Mac about two years ago that I am always evangelizing it. Yet I would like to know stuff people don't like about it.

Posted by: Groo at May 27, 2004 07:22 PM

Now thats why you are infamous drunk. Isn't equating your anger at some software changing its license to taking it out in a field and shooting it in the head a little extreme? And then making a pretty graphic?

I usually agree with you but have to take issue here. The codingmonkey guys are a great bunch of german CS students trying to earn a buck. I say more power to them, I love SubEthaEdit and use it every day. They could change the name though if they are going paid. How many purchase orders are going to have that mispelled. lol

Posted by: Jonathan at May 27, 2004 09:32 PM

Hey db, check out WebCode. I like it a lot.

Posted by: Daniella Collera at May 27, 2004 09:54 PM

Why not use Dreamweaver?

I know you own DW because you helped me with it. It has great syntax checking.

Anyhow Crea:Text was posted on listapart and is open source. http://creatext.sourceforge.net/

Posted by: drunkenbatman at May 28, 2004 12:16 AM

Alun >> So they never actually promised to release the source code under the GPL.

Thanks. I got sent a few versions of this, all worded a little differently, some saying they were thinking about open sourcing pieces, some saying exactly what yours said.

Either way, have to admit I was wrong on this one... thanks for the correction.

HYe >> That is not how it used to be and I think people are catching on if your post is an indication or Dive into Mark Freedom O. But it is their right.

It's absolutely their right, and yes I've seen the "Freedom O" post and while I agree with much of it I don't believe the value of non-free software leads to zero. I do believe (which I've said before on here) that software where the code is involved eases the mind, and generally removes surprises. All you have to worry about with open source (free or not) is continued improvement.

Neil >> ...the 'quid pro quo' style of licencing ought to be the norm. I first came across it with TrollTech's Qt licence choices. Since then, I've been mulling over the idea of using it myself. It allows people to try out your stuff for free, which is good for both you and them.

As I said via email... My problem isn't with the license, its that they changed the license. You release something as beta, all bets are off... but that's what it is, a public beta. Or release it as something like MySQL (as you would say, quid pro quo) license, or as shareware, or as a demo. You release something as freeware, it is freeware.

In this case, I'm more pissed because if it was a beta, i would have checked it out from time to time... but NOT passed it on to others and gotten them hooked, and even worked to transition them from something that was free, to something that was better, but also free. Now they have to go back to the original, and I look like an idiot. Well, more of an idiot... considering the chunk I was wrong about above.

As someone said above... all this "released as free while you build the base, then switch to pay to suck off a chunk of money from a percentage" has reached a peak with me this year, and for someone like me, its a sincere hassle. Counting the movabletype fiasco, it's four times this year.

And yes, companies doing this does cause problems for people I've recc'd software to. As an example, I have to convert three movabletype installs this weekend over to something else. It might be four, but I'm not clear on whether a friends resume site which is designed to make money by being... ya know, hired might be considered commercial so I need to fire off an email there.

I recc' a lot of things to a lot of people, and feel a responsibility there. Ask anyone who, once I've fallen in love with a piece of kit, bother them incessantly to check it out. You better believe if AdiumX went paid I'd be pissed...

I'm aware that I'm prolly in the minority in this, or considered too "old-school" but I've reached my personal breaking point in this crap. SubEthaEdit just happened to be the straw that broke the horses back in this case.

Pedro >> Would you care to expand on why you got sick of BBEdit?

Separate post... Promise... Because I found an old email where I outlined much of it.

Martin >> As Alun pointed out, the first version of the faq stated, that we were considering going opensource. Around 1.1 this was changed to a statement that we probably won't open source the application (for various reasons) but would keep it free for non-commercial use. This is the only promise we made and kept. It's quite unfair to harshly accuse us of breaking promises we never made.

True dat. I was mistaken, and as such, it was unfair. I hadn't really followed you guys as a company since a bit after the original release... and the tone then was of a few guys trying to do a fun project, not a company.

Martin >> I would appreciate it if you could reconsider your statements regarding these facts.

Consider it done, and the parts involving you releasing the source are hereby rescinded. And, I apologize for being off base on that and any confusion it caused.

Martin >> Being accused of exploiting users, I strongly object. As mentioned SubEthaEdit still is free (as in beer) for personal use. The only thing that changed is that we ask commercial users, that can afford to, to support us by buying a license. We gave out a lot of free commercial licenses to supporters.

Fair enough... although I never used the word "exploited", and I wasn't saying you were some conniving ne'er-do-wells twirling your mustaches in your corner. But, sorry, by releasing it as freeware, getting it spread far and wide, and then changing the license you most assuredly exploited users since you didn't intend for it to stay freeware.

That's just how it works... do you really think it would have the userbase it does right now if it hadn't been released as freeware first? People were doing things, including passing it around to others, while working under a different set of assumptions than you were.

Martin >> I am not sure about your statement refering to OgreKit. We contributed to OgreKit and you will find my name quite a few times on Isao's site, you've linked. I'd consider myself a good OSS citizen.

Err... I wasn't implying that you were somehow doing them wrong... it's BSD, so you can do whatever you want with it so long as you include the notices. You using it wasn't my point... my point was that there are few things in SubEthaEdit that require herculean effort for an open source project, so I assumed someone had one going on I didn't know about.

SubEthaEdit is a well done, "light" text editor with good syntax highlighting, regular expression support, html preview and rendezvous collaboration.

It's only the rendezvous and collaboration glue that would be problematic for knocking out... most of the rest could be done by gluing together existing code and projects.

Regular expressions = OgreKit, which anyone can use
HTML preview = Standard webkit view
Syntax highlighting = While I'm not aware of a specific framework, and syntax colorizing can be obtuse for NSTextviews... but there are numerous tutorials, code samples, or project source for doing it available.

The network stuff would be a bitch for a project to tackle lightly... but I don't touch the network stuff, except when I was demoing the coolness for friends. The only thing I use SubEthaEdit for is straight text stuff... none of which is uber-stuff, so I was thinking others had to have done it in some project I wasn't aware of.

Martin >> I'm open to discussion and hope you are too.

If you're serious about that, absolutely. I'll shoot you an email.

Posted by: map at May 28, 2004 03:51 AM

> I got sent a few versions of this, all worded a little differently, some saying they were thinking about open sourcing pieces, some saying exactly what yours said

Just to point out: We published quite a few bits and pieces of code, most notable a complete reference implementation for handling mulit-homed Rendezvous connections (which is part of SubEthaEdit and used in some third party products already), one of the first Cocoa bindings sample codes and numerous others, not directly SEE-related, which where used by other developers to create free- and shareware. All our open source code is BSD licensed. For examples, just read our blogs.

> SubEthaEdit just happened to be the straw that broke the horses back in this case.

I can understand your feelings, but please try to understand me too.
We are in no way affiliated with Six Apart and neither did you write an article about them. I understand that you are angry about software companies changing licenses, but I can't see the logic in taking it all out on us.

Besides, to stress it again, SubEthaEdit still is free if you don't make money with it. If you do, we ask for a moderate support. I can't see what's morally wrong about that. It's not like we crippled the application to allow only for three authors and one document...

> gluing together existing code and projects

Well, if it just were gluing, we'd have much more good software.

> If you're serious about that, absolutely. I'll shoot you an email.

Absolutely.
Hopefully not in the head.

Posted by: iGeek at May 29, 2004 04:56 PM

Map I love SubEthaEdit and use it for my hobby site.

How long will there be a free version? BBEdit used to have one, but then stopped releasing it or improving it so I had to stop using it.

Posted by: drunkenbatman at May 29, 2004 05:58 PM

Martin >> I can understand your feelings, but please try to understand me too. We are in no way affiliated with Six Apart and neither did you write an article about them. I understand that you are angry about software companies changing licenses, but I can't see the logic in taking it all out on us.

Oh, I have. Search my blog for "SixApart"... I've written several about them. :) And the movabletype example was just that, an example. I could list several others from this past year alone, several nasty ones.

If it's easier to think that some bad apples have spoiled things in my head as far this is concerned, that might be apt.

Martin >> Besides, to stress it again, SubEthaEdit still is free if you don't make money with it. If you do, we ask for a moderate support. I can't see what's morally wrong about that.

Just to iterate, my problem isn't with your license. You could have released it as paid from the start and it wouldn't have been an issue. It's the changing of the licenses that I have a problem with.

Martin >> It's not like we crippled the application to allow only for three authors and one document...

Thank god for you, or I prolly wouldn't be in the minority. :)

Martin >> Well, if it just were gluing, we'd have much more good software.

I'm not trivializing your companies efforts or the quality of what you're shipping in any way by what I said. But having the building blocks there dramatically lowers the T2M and barrier to entry for this kind of stuff, as it did for you for you in several areas.

The stuff you guys have done with integrating rendezvous in a slick, easy-to-use way is cool, very hard to do stuff... and I've thrown kudos your way to many people over it for a long time. I wouldn't be surprised if 50+ of the people using Hydra at one point were because of my turning them onto it.

But lets not get too ahead of ourself here... minus the uber-cool network stuff, of which I have no interest other than academic, and we're talking about a text editor with syntax highlighting.

Posted by: Ben at October 4, 2004 04:52 PM

Check out: Tag by www.talacia.com and smultron.sf.net (both Cocoa apps; also listed at osx.hyperjeff.net/Apps/cats.php)!